Episode 38
You're Not Broken. You Were Taught Harmful Theology!
You’re not broken.
But a lot of us were taught to believe we were.
Hi, I’m Lauren Howard. You can call me L2. Like other people do. And in this episode of Different, Not Broken, I’m talking with Libby Alders, a pastoral chaplain who works at the intersection of faith, trauma, and identity, about what happens when religion stops being a source of comfort and starts quietly doing damage.
We get into how harmful theology gets lodged in your nervous system, why so many neurodivergent and LGBTQIA people grow up feeling fundamentally wrong, and how community can heal or harm depending on who’s allowed to show up fully.
This isn’t a debate about belief. It’s a conversation about safety. About moral injury. About certainty being weaponised. And about finding ways to make meaning without being told who you’re allowed to be.
There’s swearing. There’s honesty. There’s a surprising amount of warmth for a conversation that doesn’t pull its punches.
Once you’ve been inspired to brag, here’s where you can do it!
https://differentnotbrokenpodcast.com/voicemail
Useful stuff
Stuff that helps you become awesome even if you’re different: https://stan.store/elletwo
My grown up job: https://lbeehealth.com/
Timestamped summary
00:00 “You’re Not Broken. You Were Taught Harmful Theology”
04:18 Certainty, faith, and why curiosity matters
09:32 Religion, trauma, and moral injury
14:41 Neurodivergence, queerness, and conditional belonging
20:06 Losing faith without losing yourself
26:55 Finding safer community and meaning
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
I mean, my entire academic career is based around this idea of,
Speaker:like, fighting against spirituality being, like, this harmless
Speaker:panacea of, like, it won't hurt you.
Speaker:I kind of grew up watching seeing my LGBT friends struggling with
Speaker:mental health issues, with suicide. Certainty is the
Speaker:enemy of any faith and belief system. Because you want to leave open
Speaker:curiosity and room to grow someone else believing or living
Speaker:differently from you does not mean you get to be a fucking asshole. All right,
Speaker:here we go. I'm going to pretend I'm pushing record, because that feels right. Okay,
Speaker:pressing record. Boop. Hi, everybody.
Speaker:I'm Lauren Howard. Welcome to Different Not Broken,
Speaker:which is our podcast on exactly that. That there are a lot of
Speaker:people in this world walking around feeling broken, and the reality is you're just different,
Speaker:and that's fine. You know this. If you're here, you know this. I'm
Speaker:Jewish, and everybody who's listening hears me say that, like, 700
Speaker:times an episode. So, hi, guys. Surprise. I'm Jewish. The reason
Speaker:that I'm bringing that up, though, is that I'm not, like. I don't like to
Speaker:use the term good Jew and bad Jew, because I think that's
Speaker:not a judgment that anybody gets to make, even me, about myself. But I will
Speaker:say I eat a lot of bacon and I'm not exactly observant,
Speaker:but, like, the fundamentals of it, the things that I learned in Sunday school as
Speaker:a kid, like, those kind of stick with me. I did the whole
Speaker:bat mitzvah process and actually really enjoyed it. I can still read Hebrew
Speaker:if. If you want me to. Don't want me to. It's been a long time.
Speaker:But anyway, the point being is that definitely born Jewish,
Speaker:also, bizarrely, is the word we're looking for. Raised in an
Speaker:evangelical cult. That's another episode for another day. But I do
Speaker:have this very bizarre intersection of faith in my background. And by the
Speaker:way, I was Jewish the whole time, so it's just very confusing.
Speaker:Anyway, the reason I bring that up is I sit in this weird
Speaker:place between not exactly being
Speaker:agnostic, not exactly being involved in any particular
Speaker:faith, believing that faith is important for a lot of people
Speaker:to a certain extent, needing to believe that there is
Speaker:some plan, that somebody is up to something, and that this
Speaker:is not all chaos because I will just become despondent and not get out of
Speaker:bed. Which sounds kind of nice, but anyway, so it's a
Speaker:thing that comes up regularly of, like, how do we navigate
Speaker:this world as people who have a kind of very typical millennial aversion
Speaker:to all things structured, all things that
Speaker:were impressed upon us by boomers, but also
Speaker:kind of a draw to the comfort that that could potentially provide
Speaker:regardless whether we have found that place for ourselves or
Speaker:not. So I'm very excited to have
Speaker:somebody who I absolutely adore, Libby Alders, with
Speaker:us here today. Libby is a
Speaker:pastoral chaplain, you tell me.
Speaker:So I am working on becoming a fee based pastoral counselor
Speaker:in North Carolina, which I will explain later. Sounds
Speaker:very like ah, it's not as as it sounds, but my
Speaker:background, I'm an ordained reverend, so technically I do have the
Speaker:fancy reverend title which is real fun to throw out. But I have an
Speaker:ordained reverend with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which is an
Speaker:oxymoron if you know anything about Baptist history. Like we throw down and create
Speaker:a new denomination every Sunday. It's our thing. Occasionally a new country
Speaker:too, but that's like a whole other podcast
Speaker:entirely like anyways, so that's a little bit of a background
Speaker:and I have training in what we call clinical pastoral education. So what
Speaker:a lot of people don't know is in the US chaplains are in
Speaker:every major like especially trauma centers in your major research
Speaker:hospitals like typically funded through Medicaid, Medicare, but they're part of
Speaker:and I think still even a J code requirement. So they're like
Speaker:essential staff. So I am trained to kind of work in a variety of
Speaker:settings meeting people where they're at on like oh no, you're having a
Speaker:big life event Q existential crisis. Well it's not really convenient to
Speaker:have in the middle of an er, but guess what, you're going to have it.
Speaker:So that's kind of my background and specialty is working with people in it
Speaker:was very inconvenient, but it's going to happen anyway in life
Speaker:situations kind of asking those big existential questions
Speaker:or learning like hey, what's some of that like computer programming running in the
Speaker:back of my brain of like maybe that childhood
Speaker:religious experience I had is more formative than I thought and it's, it's
Speaker:running some systems in the background. So I work with people to help them kind
Speaker:of unpack what's going on. Is it helpful? Is it kind of a
Speaker:harmful theology running in the background? Anyways, that's my long
Speaker:spiel is I am ordained Reverend, working on becoming
Speaker:a fee based pastoral counselor and working on my board certification
Speaker:to become a clinical chaplain. So you're based out of North
Speaker:Carolina? Yes. How many
Speaker:other women or non binary
Speaker:people are there in your field in North Carolina? I actually know the
Speaker:answer to this Because I checked. But now it'll look like a really
Speaker:horrible subject matter. Actually. No,
Speaker:just guess a really low number. Like, especially
Speaker:on the binary, like the non binary folks.
Speaker:If we're over 50, I would be shocked. I
Speaker:like, I would probably, like, fall. Out of the ones who are actually
Speaker:credentialed and can provide supervision in your field. It's
Speaker:like five. Yeah, that's what I was like. I was being very generous with the
Speaker:50, because I'm thinking some of my friends who are like, in that gray area
Speaker:of like, yeah, I can operate. I'm like, can you?
Speaker:Okay, Let me take it a step further, though. How many
Speaker:people who have your
Speaker:perspective on religion, but
Speaker:also like, religion's place in trauma,
Speaker:how many of those do you think exist in your
Speaker:community and. Or your state? So I'm gonna. I'm
Speaker:gonna kind of define the community as a little bit of the profession. Cause it's
Speaker:such a tiny profession that we. We cling to each other. Like, Fred,
Speaker:I don't care what time zone you're in, but as far as I'm thinking of
Speaker:some of my friends who are chaplain researchers, things like that, I can
Speaker:personally think of about 40 people I've connected with, and I'm. I'm
Speaker:talking globally. Like, 40 people who really want
Speaker:to explore a deep dive, this intersection of
Speaker:trauma and religion, and particularly explore some of the negative impact.
Speaker:So you'll find a lot of people. Pet peeve of mine. And we
Speaker:can go into it later. Like it. By pet peeve, I mean my entire
Speaker:academic career is based around this idea of, like, fighting
Speaker:against spirituality being like, this harmless panacea
Speaker:of, like, it won't hurt you. Try a little bit of this.
Speaker:And I'm like, no. Spirituality and religion can be incredibly
Speaker:dangerous and harmful. So I jokingly call myself the
Speaker:Sith Lord of resilience. Because I'm just like, no, you don't need to be resilient.
Speaker:Sometimes you just need to crash all the way out. But as far as sharing
Speaker:that perspective, maybe 40 people in the globe in North Carolina.
Speaker:It's like me and one of my besties, and we're just like,
Speaker:trauma bonding. White knuckling it
Speaker:through. Yeah.
Speaker:It'S weekly brag time. Hi,
Speaker:I'm Stacy, and my brag is. That
Speaker:I made dinner for my kids. Which I haven't done in a
Speaker:million, billion years, with a recipe I never tried before
Speaker:and techniques I never tried before, and they all thought it was
Speaker:delicious. So it feels good to know I still got it.
Speaker:If you want to leave us A note, you can do
Speaker:it@differentnotbrokenpodcast.com
Speaker:voicemail. Leave a message of the cool thing that you did. Leave your first
Speaker:name last. Initial the cool thing that you did, and
Speaker:we might feature you on a later episode.
Speaker:You know, we have a very large queer, non binary
Speaker:following or listener base. We also have, just in general,
Speaker:obviously, people who come to listen because they feel
Speaker:like they have never fit in anywhere. And a lot of that
Speaker:is not a lot of that. But I think a very common theme is
Speaker:people who grew up in very faith based communities who
Speaker:realize they, for whatever reason, are not accepted within that community,
Speaker:but really liked the aspect of community that they have now lost.
Speaker:And I know you do a lot of work in that and also helping people
Speaker:find their way back to faith in a way that is safe and
Speaker:welcoming to them. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about kind of
Speaker:how you ended up there and what
Speaker:the, let's say, the safe intersection between faith
Speaker:and identity is. So just to provide a little bit of context,
Speaker:the church I was a part of, I think I'm either the fourth or fifth
Speaker:generation in my family to be a member of this church. And
Speaker:so. And a lot of people, when they hear Baptist and American, they
Speaker:kind of immediately go to righteous gemstones. Which one? An amazing
Speaker:TV show too. Way more accurate than it.
Speaker:People realize, like, I can't watch it in chunks because it like, rigs
Speaker:out a trauma response. But I preface that by saying, like,
Speaker:the Baptist church and tradition has a lot of rich diversity.
Speaker:And unfortunately, the more progressive kind of LGBTQ side and
Speaker:friendly side of it is smaller. But my tradition
Speaker:kind of sat in the moderate, especially the early 2000s. So I grew up
Speaker:in a church that was way more liturgical. Like, we didn't have like
Speaker:the shows, the fancy lights and mega church
Speaker:vibes. It was much more like, you'd walk in and almost think it was United
Speaker:Methodist because we have the similar vestments. We follow a
Speaker:liturgical calendar, which is not usual for Baptist. But also you'd walk in
Speaker:and there'd be women. Like, women were all on staff. We had
Speaker:female deaconesses, which was since the 40s. And so I just kind of
Speaker:grew up seeing women in leadership. One of the areas where they weren't as
Speaker:progressive was on the LGBT community. So there was a lot of, you know,
Speaker:I apologize for listeners. I don't mean to be traumatic, but like, for the next
Speaker:two seconds, I might say trigger word. There was a lot of accept people with
Speaker:grace. So that's a very strong Code word for don't bring
Speaker:your full self, and that's being polite. There was a lot of hate in that
Speaker:phrase, and I want to honor it. Okay, so trigger part done for listeners,
Speaker:hopefully. So growing up, I saw a lot of examples of acceptance of, like,
Speaker:you know, we'd coordinate with the black Protestant churches in town for joint
Speaker:worship. We would do a lot of learning about black history. Like, we had
Speaker:pastors who were very intentional, like, teach us Latin from the pulpit.
Speaker:So a little bit different style, but that instilled in me kind
Speaker:of this, no, be welcoming. Like, every little thing in my faith
Speaker:tradition is hospitality and, like, disruptive
Speaker:hospitality. So because people think it's cute and fluffy, like, be
Speaker:nice and be open. Like, no. You can disrupt whole systems by refusing
Speaker:to block people out and open up hospitality.
Speaker:So I grew up with that mindset of, like, I don't care who you are,
Speaker:how you got here. You are on the planet, and I am fortunate enough to
Speaker:encounter you. What a blessing to me. So I somehow
Speaker:missed the hate gay people part. Like, I don't know.
Speaker:I grew up with family members who have been recently diagnosed autistic,
Speaker:but by the rest of us were like, this is not a surprise. We lived
Speaker:with you. Like, but with that, we also faced a lot of seeing
Speaker:people not know how to deal with those individual family members. So I got a
Speaker:preview of how mean the church could be through that neurodivergence hate a little
Speaker:bit. And then I was like, no, I don't want to be that. So I'm
Speaker:not going to apply that kind of hate to gay people because I've got a
Speaker:little bit of that empathy developing of, like, oh, I saw y' all do that
Speaker:to some family. That's not cool. So I ended up deciding to go to college
Speaker:because I had a friend die by suicide when I was really young. And the
Speaker:church response for me was very open and accepting. There was no
Speaker:condemnation. It was understanding that, like, death by suicide is.
Speaker:It is mental health concern is not a morality issue.
Speaker:There is no sin involved. Like, this is very much. This was a person in
Speaker:need. And we did not meet that. Like, our church was like, how can we
Speaker:build community and mental health? The rest of the churches by hometown were like,
Speaker:nope, lots of condemnation and judgment. And so I kind
Speaker:of grew up watching, seeing my LGBT friends struggling with mental
Speaker:health issues with suicide. So kind of seeing that intersection of neurodivergence,
Speaker:LGBT suicide, and the church response was
Speaker:failing. So I got mad about it was like, yeah, try not to cuss
Speaker:I've been working with the military, so, like, the language is real strong. Oh, say
Speaker:whatever you want. Okay. I was like, I don't know if this is an F
Speaker:bomb friendly podcast, but I've been like, oh, yeah, no. We regularly have the
Speaker:explicit rating. Go for it. Okay. So thank you.
Speaker:Okay. Like, the Chaplet episode's gonna have the most F bombs. Which I'm like,
Speaker:that's probably gonna be great. Like, as it should be. Like,
Speaker:honestly, if we don't have a counter. And like, at the
Speaker:end of the episode, it was like 16F bombs. Like,
Speaker:oh, yeah, we need a chaplain counter.
Speaker:This is the chaplain. How many
Speaker:so far? So far, four.
Speaker:So. But girl, I remember in high school getting really like, I was
Speaker:pissed because I was seeing, like, all these opportunities for my church to live
Speaker:in to this radical hospitality they preach. And they would do it really
Speaker:well with certain sectors and then others. It was like, what the hell?
Speaker:Like, I missed Jesus did not stutter. Like, I missed this part. And I got
Speaker:mad in high school to the point where I, like, took Latin instead of French
Speaker:because I wanted to go translate the original text. And then I was like,
Speaker:well, I gotta learn Greek. And then I found out in university,
Speaker:you know, the main school I wanted to go to, I didn't get in. So
Speaker:went to my fallback school, which was Campbell University, to study
Speaker:religion, philosophy and business. Because I was like,
Speaker:okay, I'm gonna get money. I'm gonna figure out how to create a safe
Speaker:haven. And also, like, where the hell is the shitty theology coming
Speaker:from? Like, it's bad. Like, I'm missing the part where you say this
Speaker:Harry Potter spell and you're magically saved for eternity without doing any good
Speaker:work. Like, I feel like we had a whole reformation about that. And then the
Speaker:Baptist, like, forgot, which makes me mad because I'm
Speaker:like, we've. We've discussed this before.
Speaker:This has come up. This has come up repeatedly.
Speaker:Again. Pretty sure, like, the Anabaptist helped start the
Speaker:US because of this. That is a very overgeneralization, but
Speaker:not totally inaccurate. Anyways, so went to college, started deep diving studying,
Speaker:started encountering more. And Campbell is a more conservative Baptist college. So that's when
Speaker:I decided discovering the Righteous Gemst Baptist. And I was like, I
Speaker:didn't. I feel like I grew up in an alternate dimension. Like, did I get
Speaker:the Tardis and, like, land in a whole new world? I don't understand what's happening.
Speaker:And studied a Campbell and I had a great campus minister
Speaker:who was a woman and she was like, you need to go to a divinity
Speaker:program. So to become a chaplain you have to have a master degree. And
Speaker:it's really cool because it's called a Master of Divinity, which is a real fun
Speaker:degree to throw around. Like I sound like a Jedi. It's great.
Speaker:And so picked Vanderbilt University. Vanderbilt is one of the top
Speaker:progressive and more forward thinking, interfaith and
Speaker:interdenominational divinity schools. So I go from tiny Baptist College
Speaker:in North Carolina to Vanderbilt Nashville, and I've got classmates who are
Speaker:Sunni Muslim imams. I've got a female medical student,
Speaker:LGBT students from across that population, which was
Speaker:a huge blessing. And they had a lot of grace and patience with me because
Speaker:I was coming from Southern Virginia, like had not
Speaker:been to a drag show. And they quickly remedied that, thankfully. It was
Speaker:amazing. Like, this is awesome. And so to kind of give you the
Speaker:vibe, I went from tiny small Baptist college to Vanderbilt, where the Dean
Speaker:would buy a keg on Friday and then tell everyone about the latest drag show
Speaker:that'd be offered downtown. So very different vibes, but that just showed me
Speaker:even more how important community is, especially for people trying to understand,
Speaker:like, who they are, where they're at, what different community these offer. Then I
Speaker:had every intention to become a professor of theology and teach people because again, I
Speaker:was seeing the shitty theology and I was like, haha, I'll start failing people with
Speaker:it and maybe we could correct it. Yeah, that didn't work because
Speaker:then they were like, well, Ph.D. is six years. And I was like, that sounds
Speaker:miserable. Ended up going on
Speaker:a date with a really cute army dude because I was like, I'm about to
Speaker:go in the middle of nowhere. I'm gonna date this guy with a really cute
Speaker:ass and like, have some fun before my denomination ships me into rural
Speaker:America. Well, that turned into a decade later,
Speaker:we've got two dogs at a house. And like I kept him, like, he's pretty
Speaker:awesome. But he is now retired from the US Army Special Forces.
Speaker:So to give you vibes of the communities I sit in. Conservative
Speaker:Baptist, moderate Baptist, Vanderbilt, LGBT
Speaker:keggers, and then Special Forces. So
Speaker:it's been a while. Okay, but where I need to know. I need to know
Speaker:where the special forces drag show intersection is.
Speaker:It is a lot stronger than you think it is. First of all,
Speaker:let's get that straight. 2. And this is something I found really interesting,
Speaker:especially for this. I, like we mentioned it earlier, like being your authentic self at
Speaker:the intersection of faith. It's kind of wild to watch
Speaker:the levels that my LGBT friends have to go to mask
Speaker:and protect their identity in public and then watch the same level
Speaker:done by my military friends. And then also there's LGBT in the
Speaker:military. So I have seen and I don't want to out people, but
Speaker:you'd be surprised at how many are in the military. I, I think a lot
Speaker:of people would be, you know, we call it big army or like conventional forces
Speaker:and special forces. So both of those have a larger population that
Speaker:you'd think. And so sitting in those areas, I just really
Speaker:saw like people were suffering and they still are. That's why I want to start
Speaker:my business and fee based pastoral counseling because one like, why charge a fee? Well,
Speaker:if you pay me, I have more freedom and I don't have to like listen
Speaker:to my crazy denomination on some stuff. I love them, but like
Speaker:need some freedom. But also to the intersection, especially
Speaker:in like North Carolina military. But then I'm an hour away from
Speaker:Raleigh, Durham, two hour, two to three hours from Charlotte, North Carolina, which
Speaker:has made the news, kind of reminded people like, oh, North Carolina is very purple.
Speaker:In all those intersections. You're seeing people really struggle with a term we use in
Speaker:the chaplaincy field of moral injury. So it's this, these deep
Speaker:betrayals of some core beliefs. You're not able to be your authentic self and
Speaker:you will turn and like you will love your teammates in the military, but you
Speaker:know, you can't be yourself 100% around them or for military
Speaker:spouses. They will sit there and have dreams of careers
Speaker:and they want to find an authentic faith community, but they're more
Speaker:progressive and they keep getting assigned to military installations where
Speaker:some of those religious traditions aren't available to spouses and to try
Speaker:to build a career. And you can't do it when you're moving every two to
Speaker:three years. Or in the case of the like the special operations community, you don't
Speaker:move as much. But your spouse is gone six months out the year for
Speaker:a decade. So you just build a routine. So that's kind of, to
Speaker:answer your question, that's where I really found myself landing was like I just found
Speaker:myself with like six different but sub
Speaker:overlapping Venn diagrams of communities. And moral injury is
Speaker:like one of the things tying them together. And people don't know how to figure
Speaker:out what they believe. And they figure it out when trauma hits and the
Speaker:value gets violated. So then they don't even have a positive
Speaker:experience of their belief. They're just like, oh no, I believed in this thing. And
Speaker:a person I really love just, like, completely undercut me by accident
Speaker:because people don't know how to navigate anymore. So that's a super long
Speaker:winded answer. So welcome to having a podcast with Chaplin.
Speaker:So what's funny is I know nobody who's listening to this has ever heard this
Speaker:before, but my dad was a psychiatrist, and he
Speaker:always had a pastoral counselor who worked out of
Speaker:his office. I don't think it was the same one. And mind you, he was
Speaker:a Jewish psychiatrist, but he always
Speaker:had a pastoral counselor who worked in his office because there was always a need
Speaker:for it. But also, he used to say all the time. Because he, you know,
Speaker:he did a lot of presentations, he presented a lot of papers. He was. He
Speaker:was an academic for a long time. And so in theory,
Speaker:he was a great speaker and he would get asked to speak a lot. But
Speaker:he used to tell me all the time, never get up to
Speaker:speak after a pastor.
Speaker:That's very true. Don't stand a chance. No, it's
Speaker:fucking civil if you follow us. He was like, nobody's
Speaker:gonna listen to you. They just had the show. You are not the show.
Speaker:This is the chaplain counter. How many
Speaker:fucks so far? Now we're up to five fucks.
Speaker:He picked up on it because, like, for context, the. The master of divinity
Speaker:degree I did was, like, 84 credit hours. So, like, more than
Speaker:most PhDs, right. I think at least 25 of those
Speaker:credit hours were communication courses, preaching courses
Speaker:publicly. So people don't realize is we're like a secret weapon for public
Speaker:speaking. We're not sure. We're not terse people, though. So you got to build that
Speaker:in presenting and, like, talking awkward, taboo subjects in front of people.
Speaker:I'm like, we're literally trained to call people out for bad behavior and then be
Speaker:like, hey, pay your tithe. Like, that's a really hard thing to
Speaker:do, by the way of, like, y' all been foolish,
Speaker:you know, to treat people nicely. Don't hate on the gays. Also, give me your
Speaker:10% tithe. Like, thanks for listening. So, like,
Speaker:us starting a substack with through subscription. Like, we're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker:this is way easier to do. Yeah,
Speaker:I'm just like, I apologize to all other professions that follow us at
Speaker:conferences because, like, we have histories of how we get in the field.
Speaker:We're not very boring people. Like, and chaplains and
Speaker:pastors are different. I'll throw that out there. So, like, chaplains were typically more
Speaker:pluralistic minded. I joke that the best chaplains are the worst
Speaker:pastors. Like, I'm a Baptist reverend, but, like, I have strong
Speaker:opinions on bourbon and judge people if they are, like, over
Speaker:30 and still drinking Jack Daniels. I'm like, no, do better. Like,
Speaker:you treat yourself well.
Speaker:That's the distinction you make of what people are too old for.
Speaker:Like, can you tell a deal with military where you could tell,
Speaker:like, the rake and pay grade? And I'm like, I see Jack Daniels in the
Speaker:cart. And I'm like, okay, I'm too old to hang out with you. Like,
Speaker:I won't understand 90 things that come out of your mouth, which is fine, but
Speaker:it's late. It's a good point. Jack Daniels in the cart is the
Speaker:equivalent to 6, 7. I have no idea what that means. Oh, my God. It's.
Speaker:I mean, the accuracy. But, yeah. And, you know, if I see.
Speaker:If I see, like, McClellan, I'm like, okay, you are a person of taste
Speaker:and sophistication. But then I'm. You have
Speaker:stripes. Come, come, come hang out. You are at least an ea.
Speaker:Excellent. Like, you can remember the
Speaker:Internet when it made angry noises at you and screeched. Excellent
Speaker:lit. You will catch my Dragon Ball Z references. Thank you. Okay. I'm like,
Speaker:I'd be sorry. One piece is not the goat of anime. That's going to be
Speaker:a hot take. That probably angers half your listeners, but I said it.
Speaker:Yeah. So chaplains are just kind of like, we're all about being with people where
Speaker:they're at. Pastors, understandably, are operating within their religious
Speaker:traditions, so they're going to be much more focused on traditional rituals,
Speaker:traditional processes, building their churches.
Speaker:That sounds miserable to me. So I was like, n. I want to go hang
Speaker:out with people who are super traumatized. Like, hi, I'm going to
Speaker:meet you in the er and they, you know, you may be having the worst
Speaker:day of your life, and that's fine. I'm here to walk with you through it.
Speaker:Let's figure it out. So. So jumping off from that, I know you
Speaker:do a ton of work in trauma space. I also imagine, like, trauma
Speaker:work with you is probably really funny, and that sounds great.
Speaker:So you sit at this fascinating intersection
Speaker:of really, like, every aspect of people's lives. But I know you focus heavily on
Speaker:trauma, and that might be kind of germane to your field.
Speaker:Let's say somebody is looking for your services.
Speaker:My suspicion is that they don't even know they're looking for your services
Speaker:because they probably don't know that somebody like you exists. Who is it
Speaker:that you outside of? Let's say an environment that you,
Speaker:you get paid to make rounds in the hospital where you're going to interact with
Speaker:a whole lot of people who ends up in front of you who
Speaker:could benefit from what you do outside of those
Speaker:acutely traumatic moments. Because that's really what you're folk you're kind of
Speaker:transitioning toward. Right, right. So because like I started in that
Speaker:trauma, like trauma ER, hospital sphere, the last
Speaker:eight years have been more research. So like
Speaker:hanging out with military, doing fieldwork, media where they're at
Speaker:there. But if you're, if you're looking for somebody with my expertise, at least
Speaker:how I'm building it up because I, I really have to build at the grassroots
Speaker:level up. But I'm figuring it out as we go. But what I've been doing
Speaker:lately is really partnering with social workers and mental
Speaker:health master level providers. Not so much
Speaker:psychiatry and psychology. There, there's a weird vibe. You know,
Speaker:your dad was probably much the exception on this, which
Speaker:rockstar and ballerina. But like psychiatrists and chaplains will
Speaker:butt heads a lot. And it was weird to me because I like actually was
Speaker:assigned to a psych team and they were like, ah, you're gonna
Speaker:convert people like God? I hope not. My faith kind of sucks. Like,
Speaker:like my nickname in divinity school was the D Evangelist. Like I'm like, you sure
Speaker:you want to join my faith? Like it's expensive, you'll get annoyed, you get yelled
Speaker:at. I mean there's cool people, but anyways, so if you try to find someone
Speaker:like me, I go through like word of mouth. So like my fee based pastoral
Speaker:counseling, I want to start up. I'm going to have to go through some local
Speaker:therapists. I know some military chaplains, I know friends and family kind of build up
Speaker:and do referral based because unfortunately if you're searching for
Speaker:me in North Carolina, you're gonna have to use the term fee based
Speaker:pastoral counselor, which is one like horrible
Speaker:marketing. But it's like legal issues. So we have to make sure that
Speaker:people know we're not like a licensure. We're going to be a certification
Speaker:where I have different specialties. But even then the language is very much going
Speaker:to sound evangelical. So for a lot of my ex vangelicals and my LGBTQ
Speaker:folks, I understand like you may not even know how to find me.
Speaker:So what I tell people is if you're wanting to kind of unpack, like you
Speaker:say you grew up evangelical LGBT and now you're like,
Speaker:I got a lot of self hate and I don't know where it's coming from.
Speaker:And maybe I got some of that really harmful theology right out of the
Speaker:back of my head, like, excel refusing to close on your computer,
Speaker:that I would tell people, like, if you already have a therapist, see if they
Speaker:know of a chaplain that they really trust. And so the
Speaker:therapist could kind of find us because we do exist and a lot of us
Speaker:partner with existing therapy offices. But that's the unfortunate part. Like,
Speaker:if you're Googling, it's going to be really hard to find us. For me, I'm
Speaker:trying to build up LinkedIn webpage that's going to have some more
Speaker:subversive language to hint at people, have a safe space. Like, but,
Speaker:you know, I'm also straight. So I was like, I don't know if I'm an
Speaker:ally, but I'm trying. Like, that's up for the LGBT folks to decide.
Speaker:What do you want the people who should find you to know? I would want
Speaker:to tell them that I have no goal
Speaker:or objective for you to find a specific
Speaker:faith. Like, I have zero desire to guide you to any specific
Speaker:endpoint. My goal is to help you figure that out and plot
Speaker:your own course, but also be like, ah, stay away from this theology.
Speaker:It's quicksand and it's bad. That's really what I want to get at, is like,
Speaker:this is a space for you to wander. There's grace to make
Speaker:mistakes. I have no agenda to make you Christian. And in fact, I'm going to
Speaker:be like, why? Like, you can. I'm just going to be like, why? But as
Speaker:if you want to become Buddhist. I got some great Buddhist chaplain friends. Like, let
Speaker:me hook you up with some resources, you know? So I kind of think of
Speaker:myself as the ultimate referral hub of like, let me
Speaker:vet and give you some safe resources and referrals. Whatever you're
Speaker:looking at, I don't even care. You want to go join the humanist local group
Speaker:at your college, but you don't even know the words to search for. I'll help
Speaker:you out and I'll connect you to a humanist chaplet. So that's my vibe. I'm
Speaker:here to walk with people to help them figure out where they want to go,
Speaker:and they're going to set the pace. I'm just providing a little bit of
Speaker:bumper plate, said the bowling lade. Is there
Speaker:a faith for everybody who. Wants one for me? And
Speaker:this is where, like, I can already hear my Unitarian Universalist and
Speaker:Humanist friends being like, join us, Libby. Join the Dark side. I think
Speaker:there's a belief system for it, everyone. And I really want to
Speaker:open and welcome and acknowledge our agnostic and humanist and
Speaker:atheist friends because, like, that is a 100% valid
Speaker:approach to life. And I want them to build their meaning
Speaker:and purpose and belief set in such a way that supports them
Speaker:and helps them build a life and doesn't leave them in this angry, traumatized place
Speaker:where they think every person of faith is going to hate them. And then I
Speaker:also want to look at my people's face and be like, no, stop it. Like
Speaker:that whole, oh God, I hate the phrase there's no atheist in foxholes. I'm like,
Speaker:no, it's a stupid phrase. Like, I, if I faced war, would probably
Speaker:become atheist real quick because it's traumatizing. So I, I
Speaker:would tell people there are healthy ways for you to have a belief system.
Speaker:What might be healthy for you may not be healthy to someone else. And I
Speaker:kind of expound on that a little bit. The last eight years or so, I've
Speaker:been working in research with the military for something called Total
Speaker:Force Fitness. It's not the best naming convention in the world. I didn't create
Speaker:it, I inherited it. But spiritual fitness was the domain I worked in.
Speaker:And the idea for that is you help people one, figure out what they believe.
Speaker:Two, understand that it's totally healthy for those
Speaker:beliefs to change throughout your life. Like, belief is not
Speaker:certainty. Like, I tell people, if I could have one thing on my head stone,
Speaker:it would be belief does not equal certainty. I would argue certainty
Speaker:is the enemy of any faith or belief system because you want to leave
Speaker:open curiosity and room to grow. And then three,
Speaker:someone else believing or living differently from you does not mean you get to be
Speaker:a fucking asshole. Like, no.
Speaker:This is the chaplain fuck counter. How many
Speaker:fucks? So far, we've now reached seven chaplain
Speaker:fucks. So spiritually fit people understand and you can debate, you can
Speaker:disagree and then turn around and you can still be good friends or interactions these
Speaker:people in society. So there's kind of the three main pins of like, do you
Speaker:even know what you believe? And I'll tell you right now, most people don't. Two,
Speaker:do you understand that it's healthy for it to change with your faith? Like, if
Speaker:you grew up evangelical and then you become wicked, which is a
Speaker:strong pipeline. One, highly recommend it. Two, it is totally
Speaker:healthy for you to do this. Like, let's get you in with some vetted
Speaker:resources so we can avoid the, the red pill, pink pill,
Speaker:because they do show up as well. For all faith traditions, we all got our
Speaker:versions of those. Like, how can I safely get you to
Speaker:what's your next destination? Essentially I'm like a stupidist, but a cool
Speaker:one. A flight attendant. Sorry, 1950 term coming out. My bad.
Speaker:One thing I really think is people need to be more intentional on kind of
Speaker:building their own meeting systems and kind of getting the reps in on their own
Speaker:spirituality. Because there's some research, I think it's by Dr.
Speaker:Crystal Parks, where she looks at meaning and purpose and the trauma cycle, the
Speaker:reciprocal model. It's really good work. But there was like a little
Speaker:nugget where she cited and I need to go find it. But it's like that
Speaker:citation you see, and then you're like, I should highlight it. And then your ADHD
Speaker:kicks in and you don't highlight it. And a decade later you're like, what the
Speaker:fuck is that citation? So it's that one for people listening.
Speaker:But she talks about how for the average person in America,
Speaker:especially after the age of 12, you really don't get any
Speaker:formative belief building processes. Like the rituals disappear.
Speaker:You're not actively attending your religious traditions as much. And you
Speaker:think about it, a lot of religious traditions have some sort of like age of
Speaker:reason. Welcome to puberty. Oh boy, hold on a bit.
Speaker:But once people hit those, they quit actively developing. And with the
Speaker:drop off of participating in church in America, which I think is a.
Speaker:The church deserved it. I'm like, my pastor friends are like, why do people not
Speaker:come? And I'm like, because you're dicks. Like, you hate
Speaker:on gay people. And then wonder why people don't show up in your church. You
Speaker:want women to not have equal rights and then you want wonder why people will
Speaker:come to your church. Also, like Jesus would be very confused, not welcomed
Speaker:in your church because spoiler alert, Jesus was brown. Like.
Speaker:A brown immigrant. Like also
Speaker:with the king tried to kill him. So it's like, feels a little
Speaker:relevant. I don't. Yeah, so sorry, hold on, let me take. Let me take
Speaker:that and count one for my team. A brown Jewish immigrant.
Speaker:Yes. Probably illegal. Anyway. Continue. Oh yeah, it's
Speaker:also like insert sidebar nativity scenes that have the
Speaker:wise men showing up with the shepherds. Pissed me off. Because it's not how it
Speaker:works. Like to the point where my husband does not let me comment.
Speaker:When we're driving along and seeing the Tiffany displays and he's like, I know the
Speaker:wise men weren't there. Don't comment. I'm like it's wrong. I mean, they also put
Speaker:them up in December, so there's that continuing like. He'S a spring
Speaker:baby. But yeah. Oh, people don't want to come to church because they hate. Yeah,
Speaker:yeah. So when you don't have community where you can
Speaker:explore and develop, like I grew up in a tradition that was more
Speaker:moderate, progressive. They, like I explained earlier, they, they're still learning some
Speaker:things, you know, good job, you're getting there, little guys. But
Speaker:I had a community where growing up, if I attended a, like a
Speaker:class, the pastor would be like, okay, like you're picking up on this one belief
Speaker:that it gonna work. Here's the Greek. Keep exploring this
Speaker:belief of, but find it in a way that, that lines up a little bit
Speaker:better. But if you don't have those communities where you can grow, be weird,
Speaker:you know, do the spiritual version of trying a new haircut
Speaker:or clothing style. Like how you express your
Speaker:beliefs because that's other pieces. People don't know what they believe then they don't even
Speaker:know how to express it. So I'm like, are you really anti
Speaker:abortion or have you not even thought about it? Because you're just parroting
Speaker:things. But then in the moment, in a crisis, and I think this is why
Speaker:you have that dissonance, what I call the white woman dissidence, essentially of like when
Speaker:you're in the situation, oh, you're now thinking about it and
Speaker:you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'm going to die if I don't
Speaker:get this service or I will not have the money to provide for my other
Speaker:two children if I do not get this medical care. Like, you're
Speaker:having that room to explore that and we don't have those. Whereas I grew
Speaker:up with a youth group that was like, okay, we're going to talk about this.
Speaker:Like birth control is medicine, abortion is health care. And we
Speaker:had the space to explore and be like, just because, like, if you don't want
Speaker:one, okay, cool, don't block other people. Like, again
Speaker:that learning, how do you interact with people who believe differently? Okay, well
Speaker:if you don't want to do something, don't do it.
Speaker:Like, you don't need to go and tell other people not to. But we don't
Speaker:have those options now. And it kind of sounds like a cute little fuzzy problem,
Speaker:but in the military in particular, like I was running into, we're having
Speaker:like 38 year old people, male and female,
Speaker:brilliant at their work, absolutely brilliant. Dealing with a high
Speaker:stress situation, incredibly traumatic experiences, doing Some
Speaker:work, it's gonna have ramifications for them. You know, they're navigating really
Speaker:difficult things. And particularly I kept trying not to get in the special
Speaker:operations world for research. And I like the new universe was like, haha, screw you,
Speaker:you're going right back in. And I'm like, I want to teach theology in college
Speaker:students. And they're like, go research special tactics
Speaker:airmen. And I'm like, deity, what the fuck are you doing?
Speaker:Oh. And then I learned there's not a lot of difference between the 18 year
Speaker:old college student and a 38 year old special tactics airman when
Speaker:it comes to having developed their spirituality or their belief
Speaker:system. Because in America, nobody after at that age, anybody
Speaker:after 12 hasn't really done it. But then you have somebody who's 38,
Speaker:they've come out of a battle, they've had to do things and they have no
Speaker:way to process it. And they're basically running a 12 year old's ethical
Speaker:program on a 38 year old war fighter problem. And
Speaker:you're like, oh no. And like, that's not fair to them, that's not fair to
Speaker:anybody in the system. And we're not equipping, you know, it's not just a military
Speaker:problem. You're going to have your doctor in the ER facing Covid,
Speaker:you know, not like operating off of.
Speaker:The last time I really thought about this kind of stuff, I was maybe
Speaker:14. It's a huge disservice we're doing across the board.
Speaker:And then when people are like, while working out in therapy, I love therapy.
Speaker:Therapy is great, but we don't have spaces where people
Speaker:can just exist without a diagnostic label. And we're losing
Speaker:third spaces in our country as well. So you can't exist without pay to
Speaker:play in our country. You don't have safe spaces to make mistakes. Try out your
Speaker:new spiritual hairstyle, you know, whatever. And then you
Speaker:don't have spaces to grow and develop. So you're
Speaker:just like, you've got 45 year old problems on a 12 year
Speaker:old's ethical system. And there's nothing wrong with the 12 year old's ethical system system.
Speaker:It's great for a 12 year old developmentally, good job. But it's not
Speaker:going to fly for things I faced in combat or things I faced
Speaker:providing in Covid or I grew up hating lgbt. And then
Speaker:I noticed the only people that took care of me during COVID were my LGBT
Speaker:neighbors because my church did not step up. Like now what do I
Speaker:do with the hospitality? I was taught would come from my faith. Tradition
Speaker:has come from those that have my faith. Tradition has labeled the
Speaker:enemy. It's almost weird. Like, we got a parable about that. The faith
Speaker:tradition, you know, I won't go there. Not like the Good Samaritan parables.
Speaker:Just hang it out. It's almost like there's some hypocrisy
Speaker:layered in there somewhere. Maybe a teeny, tiny bit of it.
Speaker:Shock. The female reverend who drinks bourbon rants about it
Speaker:anyways. But only good
Speaker:bourbon. I am snobbish, and that is not kind of me.
Speaker:My hospitality and faith does not extend to your bourbon choices.
Speaker:And it doesn't. And I don't think it has to. If you're 22
Speaker:and still learning and have no money, it's fine. Get Jack Daniels. Put a
Speaker:lot of Coke in it. Like Coca Cola, not the other Coke. Let me clarify.
Speaker:On that unimaginably perfect note, Libby. If people want to find
Speaker:you, where can they find you? Ah, so currently, the best way to find me
Speaker:is going to be on my LinkedIn page, because I'm still in the process of
Speaker:setting up my LLCs. But if you want to find me in which is Elizabeth
Speaker:Libby Alders, feel free to message me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty responsive. I have
Speaker:no life. I'm kind of always like that. Tells you I'm not cool. I'm like,
Speaker:check out my link. Awesome. It was lovely,
Speaker:lovely to speak with you and I thank you so, so much for
Speaker:spending this time and telling us about what you do and have a great day,
Speaker:everybody. Thanks for stopping by and love you. Mean it.
Speaker:This is the chaplain counter. How many
Speaker:fucks so far? We had 11 fucks in total.
Speaker:We'll start actually doing this the legit way so that Neil has
Speaker:the intros that he needs or supposedly he needs. Who knows?
Speaker:It might be fun to just throw people into a podcast episode with no
Speaker:context whatsoever. Anyways, I forgot
Speaker:how to do my job. Give me a second, I'll get there. God damn
Speaker:it. That's definitely gonna end up as the blurb at the end of
Speaker:an episode. Need to remember that.
Speaker:Okay.
