Episode 41
ICE Raids, Queer Faith and Why Injustice Feels So Personal
I didn’t want to have this rant.
I’m tired of needing to have this rant.
Hi, I’m Lauren Howard. You can call me L2. Like other people do.
In this episode of Different, Not Broken, I talk about ICE raids, fear, and what it feels like when people are genuinely afraid to exist in their own communities.
I tell a personal story about someone I rely on every day being too scared to drive six minutes across her own neighbourhood — despite being a citizen — because ICE was crawling the area. And I unpack why “just comply” is a lie that doesn’t protect people when power isn’t being exercised responsibly.
This episode is about fear that makes sense, exhaustion that isn’t a personal failure, and why mental health can’t be separated from the political reality we’re living inside.
Later in the episode, I’m joined by Myah Knight for a deeper conversation about queer faith, religious trauma, and the kind of community people need when institutions become unsafe.
You’ll hear:
Why fear is a rational response to what’s happening right now
Why “just comply” doesn’t actually keep people safe
How power shifts the goalposts until you’re always in the wrong
What allostatic load is and why you’re exhausted even when you’re not doing much
How queer faith and community can exist alongside religious trauma
Why needing support doesn’t mean you’re broken
Once you’ve been inspired to brag, here’s where you can do it!
https://differentnotbrokenpodcast.com/voicemail
Useful stuff
Stuff that helps you become awesome even if you’re different: https://stan.store/elletwo
My grown up job: https://lbeehealth.com/
Chapters / Timestamps
00:00 – Why I’m talking about ICE and fear
01:06 – Being too scared to drive six minutes
03:20 – Why “just comply” doesn’t protect you
06:37 – What federal overreach actually looks like
10:00 – Fear, abuse dynamics, and moving goalposts
15:45 – Why you’re exhausted even when you’re doing nothing
19:50 – Why I wanted Myah in this conversation
20:30 – Queer faith, religious trauma, and healing
37:25 – Small Talk listener question: dissociation or burnout?
40:15 – What I want you to hear before you go
Mentioned in this episode:
Wanna sponsor this podcast
http://differentnotbrokenpodcast.com/sponsors
Brag on yourself
Wanna brag on yourself for something you've done which you're proud of? https://differentnotbrokenpodcast.com/voicemail
Build Your Better course
Build your better course - https://stan.store/elletwo/p/build-your-better
Join Quirky
Transcript
Imagine being too scared to drive literally
Speaker:six minutes across the neighborhood that you've been in for 20
Speaker:years. They're trying to deport American citizens. Where do you deport a
Speaker:citizen to? Where do you deport somebody who was born
Speaker:here? Equity feels like oppression when you're the oppressor, bro. And
Speaker:so they made a police force out of them. All right, here
Speaker:we go. I'm going to pretend I'm pushing record, because that feels right. Okay, I'm
Speaker:pressing record. Boop. Hi, everybody.
Speaker:I'm Lauren Howard. Welcome to Different, Not
Speaker:Broken, which is our podcast on exactly that. That there
Speaker:are a lot of people in this world walking around feeling broken, and the reality
Speaker:is you're just different, and that's fine. I have a rant to do, and I'm
Speaker:so fucking tired of having rants to do. Like, why do people
Speaker:keep lighting basic, like, human rights
Speaker:and dignities on fire so that I have rants to do. I don't want to
Speaker:have rants to do. I just want to, like, eat snacks and watch shows
Speaker:about murder. And instead I have to go on the Internet
Speaker:because I don't know what else to do with my hands. I was like, what
Speaker:the fuck else am I supposed to do? Like, my. She used to be my
Speaker:nanny. Now she's my assistant who I do not get through
Speaker:a day without. She is the functioning part of my brain. Day to day, she
Speaker:lives, like, maybe six minutes from us in a house in another
Speaker:neighborhood. But the neighborhood we live in is considered part of this
Speaker:larger neighborhood in Orlando, and it's gotten very, very large.
Speaker:It's basically become its own community, even though it's part of Orlando proper.
Speaker:She's been showing up to this house nearly every day
Speaker:for almost eight years, seven and a half years,
Speaker:because she started when my youngest was two months old,
Speaker:and she has not left us since. And that child is seven and a half
Speaker:now. So she's been showing up here every single day for that entire time.
Speaker:And every single day, like clockwork.
Speaker:I look out of my front window at 8:58, and
Speaker:her little egg car, she drives a little, like. We call
Speaker:it an egg. It's like a little Toyota Yaris, and it looks like an egg.
Speaker:We call it the huevo. And anyway, her little egg car parks right outside
Speaker:my window, and I'm like, okay, the day is starting because the functioning part
Speaker:of my brain has arrived. The ways she knows to harass me to get things
Speaker:done, the ways that she makes sure my children have what they need.
Speaker:The ways that she communicates with people without me asking to get things on my
Speaker:behalf. I cannot function without this human, like, on
Speaker:the other side of this door. I always think that I'm, like, in here with,
Speaker:like, all my privacy and stuff. And then I'll walk out and she will make
Speaker:it very clear that she heard everything I just said and parrot it back to
Speaker:me. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that I have. Anyway, she's allowed to
Speaker:hear everything. She has access to all my emails. If it exists, she's seen it.
Speaker:So I don't need privacy from her, but I certainly don't have it. Anyway,
Speaker:one morning she texted me and she was like, I don't think I'm going to
Speaker:come in today. Which has never happened, except for,
Speaker:like, maybe one time where she had a cold. I don't think I'm coming in
Speaker:today. I was like, is everything okay?
Speaker:Because clearly some sky was falling in. I mean, this person
Speaker:lived with us, like, lived in my house for two years
Speaker:during the first two years of the pandemic, because it was the only way to,
Speaker:like, keep everybody safe and have her rather than having her.
Speaker:Like, her not showing up was a big deal. I wasn't upset about it, but
Speaker:it was a big deal. And so I was like, is everything okay? She was
Speaker:like, I mean, sort of. And I'm like, that doesn't sound right. But
Speaker:apparently ice was crawling all over our neighborhood and she
Speaker:was worried that if for some reason she got stopped that they would grab her.
Speaker:Here's the thing. Aside from the fact that nobody should be worried about that at
Speaker:all, should not be a concern, full stop. She's a
Speaker:citizen. She's been a citizen her whole life. Her dad's a
Speaker:citizen, she's a citizen. But
Speaker:she looks kind of brown. And her concern was not that
Speaker:they were going to incorrectly assess her citizenship, it was that they
Speaker:weren't going to give a fuck. Which is a valid concern, a very
Speaker:valid concern. And so she said,
Speaker:kind of sheepishly, honestly, but she said, do you mind if I just work from
Speaker:home today? And I was like, absolutely, of course. I don't care. But imagine
Speaker:being too scared to drive literally six minutes
Speaker:across the neighborhood that you've been in for 20 years,
Speaker:maybe more than that, because there's
Speaker:unnecessary federal agents everywhere, and they have
Speaker:made it their mission to terrorize people based on
Speaker:how they look and based on their lack of quote, unquote compliance.
Speaker:Compliance is a bullshit myth. It's not that I didn't understand
Speaker:what was going on, and it's not that it wasn't miserably
Speaker:troubling to me. The whole time I felt completely
Speaker:powerless. Like, what do you do in that situation? Obviously she is
Speaker:allowed to stay home if that's what she's concerned about. She can do whatever she
Speaker:wants. She can stay home as long as she needs. But why should somebody have
Speaker:to stay in their house? Somebody who is actually, I don't even care if you're
Speaker:here legally, why should somebody have to stay in their house because there's an
Speaker:unregulated fake army outside your door
Speaker:who are deployed here not for any reason other than to terrorize
Speaker:people. Why should that be a thing? Why should she be scared to go to
Speaker:work? And you know, as the resident
Speaker:Mayo Sapien of the group, I asked if she wanted me to come pick her
Speaker:up because I would very happily drive her here. And
Speaker:in my 6,000 pound SUV that goes broom very
Speaker:loudly. Because I've reached the point where I'm like, come at me,
Speaker:bro. I will protect the people. Oh, actually I will.
Speaker:It's not just the people in my universe. I will protect whomever because
Speaker:fuck these people. But that was actually before
Speaker:or the most recent thing where they shot
Speaker:a ICU nurse in cold blood. Who was rendering aid. He
Speaker:was rendering aid. They didn't even know he had a firearm with
Speaker:him. He was rendering aid. And then they tried to say
Speaker:after they murdered him and emptied an entire clip into him, that he
Speaker:brandished a firearm at him. Except we have video.
Speaker:We have video. They can't even lie
Speaker:about what happened because people know better than to let
Speaker:them breathe in front of them without video.
Speaker:On nearly every occasion that they have stepped out of bounds, there has been video
Speaker:proving that they are outright lying. And this was
Speaker:before that even happened. And again, your
Speaker:status doesn't matter in these situations because it doesn't matter
Speaker:to them. They're saying that they're trying to deal with
Speaker:immigration issues, but if they were trying to deal with immigration issues, there are
Speaker:10,000 ways to do that without hurting
Speaker:people like cattle and being completely non
Speaker:discriminatory on who you're grabbing. They don't care. They're trying to
Speaker:deport American citizens. Where do you deport a citizen to?
Speaker:Where do you deport somebody who was born here? It's not deporting
Speaker:if you're sending them to a place they're not from. That's kidnapping.
Speaker:But they don't care. They don't care. It's the threat,
Speaker:it's the attempt to silence. That's all that's all it's
Speaker:about. It's not about the rest of it. There is no rest of it. And
Speaker:the thing that keeps, like, just playing in my head on
Speaker:repeat that I can't shake is that there's
Speaker:this narrative. Well, if they had just complied. If they had just obeyed.
Speaker:Obeyed what? There was not a lawful order being made. There was
Speaker:nothing illegal being done. Complying with somebody just
Speaker:because they have a badge is not required
Speaker:when they're not doing anything within the boundaries of their position.
Speaker:You do not have to comply with the police just because they said so.
Speaker:You don't. But the bottom line is, let's say that person
Speaker:didn't comply. Let's say there was actually a lawful order made and
Speaker:that person didn't comply. You're not supposed to empty a magazine full
Speaker:of bullets into a guilty person either. It's not like there's a
Speaker:situation where this is acceptable. Not only was he
Speaker:lawfully carrying a firearm, but he hadn't taken it out of his
Speaker:pocket. The only thing he was brandishing
Speaker:were the requirements of him of being a licensed
Speaker:individual. Seeing someone in pain, seeing someone who
Speaker:needed help, he has an ethical obligation to intervene.
Speaker:You're not supposed to just let someone die. He was
Speaker:doing what he's supposed to do and they emptied a
Speaker:magazine into him for it. And I want to be clear, this is not
Speaker:the first time. And I don't love that there's so much public
Speaker:outrage now when this has happened. I think it's like nine previous
Speaker:times in the last month or something to people who weren't white.
Speaker:And the outrage is around these two white individuals. But
Speaker:the outrage needs to go far beyond that. First off, the outrage needs to be
Speaker:not in the fact that they're killing people, but that they are in the position
Speaker:to exist and supported by this administration to do the things
Speaker:they're doing anyway. Baselined. Even before somebody gets hurt,
Speaker:we have a big problem. But now people are getting hurt.
Speaker:And instead of it being about these people are in places where
Speaker:they shouldn't be doing things they shouldn't be doing.
Speaker:It's about, well, if you just listened, this would be fine. If you
Speaker:just did what we told you, we won't shoot you. It's like the
Speaker:governmentalization. I don't even know if that's a word of,
Speaker:if you stop making me so mad, I wouldn't hit you. If you have friends
Speaker:right now who are abuse survivors, what is happening in the government
Speaker:feels very familiar to them because that's what they're moving the Goalposts.
Speaker:Every time, every time it's somehow a new version of your fault.
Speaker:When you do what they said the last time, they will find a new way
Speaker:to encroach upon your freedoms because there's a new thing
Speaker:that you've done wrong again and again and again until you have no freedoms left,
Speaker:until you have no ability to take care of
Speaker:yourself, until you are not allowed to move freely in your community, until
Speaker:in the same way that you watch abuse victims lose all
Speaker:their access to money, lose all their access to friends and family, get their
Speaker:phones taken away, get all of these different ways that they could ask for help
Speaker:taken away. That's what they're doing. They're making it so
Speaker:it's silence or death. And if you're not
Speaker:silent, you're being non compliant. And if you're non compliant,
Speaker:we can kill you, or we can come into your house, or we can rip
Speaker:your children out of your arms, or we can try to deport you even though
Speaker:you live here legally. And the thing is, the courts aren't behind them. The courts
Speaker:are ruling against them over and over and over. And so instead of trying to
Speaker:do it through any legal means or any. Not that they were doing it legally
Speaker:before, but instead of trying to do it through the processes that
Speaker:do exist, because they keep getting shot down for trying to use
Speaker:those, they've just decided to go for full violence. Why not? It's a
Speaker:hard time to exist. And I don't want to make it sound like the field
Speaker:that I am in is harder to be in than any other, because I don't
Speaker:think that's true. Though it seems like kind of a fun time to be in
Speaker:federal law enforcement. If you're an untrained, fragile little man that does
Speaker:seem like they're having fun. They might be the only people having fun right
Speaker:now. But it is such a difficult
Speaker:time to be in mental health right now because, like, what the fuck
Speaker:are you supposed to say to people? Like, do we have a mental health crisis
Speaker:or do we have the world just falling apart around us and everything's
Speaker:terrible and I can't pay my bills crisis, there's no medication for that.
Speaker:There's no amount of therapy that's going to fix the actual world around you.
Speaker:And it's not to say we can't help. There are ways that we can help.
Speaker:Like, what do we do? How do we help people in any way that
Speaker:actually matters? There are some days where I just sit around and I'm like,
Speaker:I don't even know what to do with my hands, because I'm over here telling
Speaker:people that we want to help them. And the reality is I don't know how
Speaker:much we can actually do. I don't know how much we can actually do. No
Speaker:idea. And the reality is we can do something. There's always something that
Speaker:we can do as trained professionals. The
Speaker:therapists, the psychologists, the psychiatrist, et cetera, who I work with, they
Speaker:have arsenals of toolkits of ways that they can try to help
Speaker:you process these things, help you work through these things. Those things exist.
Speaker:And that's not to say don't rely on your mental health practitioners, but, man, it
Speaker:feels so futile to wake up every day
Speaker:and run a business or try to run a business that is
Speaker:focused on making people's lives better or
Speaker:trying to make their lives more livable. And then the reality is, on the outside
Speaker:is this toxic hellscape that I don't like. I don't realistically know we can do
Speaker:anything about. I mean, I know we can't do anything about it, not in that
Speaker:capacity, not from a mental health perspective. We can protest.
Speaker:We can write our senators, we can write our congresspeople. We can be
Speaker:loudmouths on the Internet. We can help people find community. We can
Speaker:build other communities. We can try to find safe spaces. We can do all of
Speaker:that, and all of that is helpful, but all of that is stuff that we
Speaker:shouldn't have to do. We shouldn't be doing things to protect people against their
Speaker:own government. And that's what we're doing right now. We're spending time and energy and
Speaker:resources to try to protect people from their own government. Because one
Speaker:sad, scared little man with giant ankles and tiny
Speaker:hands was given the keys to the kingdom. His
Speaker:followers see no limit to the power that he's
Speaker:allowed to have. And so he surrounded himself by an army
Speaker:of sad, scared, little, fragile men who feel oppressed by the
Speaker:existence of other people who are allowed to exist. That's
Speaker:the nature of their oppression. These other people are allowed to exist, and
Speaker:therefore I am threatened by them, and it
Speaker:oppresses me. Equity feels like oppression when you're the oppressor, bro. And
Speaker:so they made a police force out of them. They made a police force out
Speaker:of them. You're not supposed to empty a magazine full of bullets
Speaker:into guilty people either. There's some
Speaker:dude bro on the Internet who said, you're oversimplifying. You're taking all
Speaker:of the nuance out of law enforcement and what it is to have those
Speaker:jobs and These are people who were giving orders, and they were just
Speaker:following orders. The people who enforced the Nazi agenda, you know what
Speaker:we called them? Nazis. These are
Speaker:grown people who are making choices. And signing an
Speaker:employment contract does not mean that you have a responsibility to stand
Speaker:by silent while one of your colleagues murders someone in front of you
Speaker:and then reinforce the lie that it was the fault of the person who died.
Speaker:If the reality is that these are people who
Speaker:got put in a bad situation by bad federal orders that they didn't realize were
Speaker:going to be their responsibility, then they shouldn't be following
Speaker:them. It's illegal to enforce an illegal order. You're still breaking
Speaker:the law. You can't cop out and say, well, I'm just doing my job. Yeah,
Speaker:so we're Nazi enforcers. And as the descendant of
Speaker:Holocaust survivors, that doesn't sit right with me. If you're
Speaker:scared, if you're overwhelmed, if you
Speaker:feel helpless, if you feel powerless,
Speaker:that's very reasonable, entirely
Speaker:reasonable. And that's the goal.
Speaker:The goal is to make you feel so powerless that there is
Speaker:nothing else that you can do but sit and let them do what
Speaker:they want. Now, that doesn't mean that today has to be the day you fight
Speaker:back. It doesn't mean that you have to go get in a picket line for
Speaker:a protest. It doesn't mean you have to figure out how to process through this.
Speaker:But you are not doing anything wrong. There is nothing wrong with you. If the
Speaker:things going on in this world are so fucking overwhelming
Speaker:that you're finding yourself feeling completely inept at the things that
Speaker:you do every day, feeling underproductive, feeling like you can't catch up, feeling
Speaker:feeling completely burdened.
Speaker:There is this concept of allostatic load, which is
Speaker:the things around you that put pressure on you. At
Speaker:the beginning of the pandemic, there were lots of people who weren't working,
Speaker:who were furloughed, who didn't have a lot of
Speaker:responsibilities, and they just reported feeling exhausted all the time. They weren't
Speaker:doing anything. They weren't job searching. I don't say that critically. They
Speaker:weren't doing anything because there wasn't anything to be done. They were watching tv, they
Speaker:were baking sourdough. They were doing all of this, like, very minimal stuff
Speaker:and would still crash out every day and want to nap all the time because
Speaker:that's all that they could do. And it's because the allostatic load, the just
Speaker:amount of environmental pressure and worry
Speaker:and grief and things that are happening around you is so draining
Speaker:that you Feel like you have been working 80 hour weeks when in
Speaker:reality you've been staring at the TV. Because just the existence of
Speaker:stress puts stress on the body. The allostatic load of this
Speaker:situation is completely unmanageable. So if
Speaker:instead of bouncing out of bed and going to the gym like you
Speaker:normally do, you're exhausted and you don't feel like working,
Speaker:that's the reality of a hyper stressful situation. And if
Speaker:you are having trouble finding the motivation because there's this thing
Speaker:lingering in the universe and maybe it doesn't affect you personally, but it affects you
Speaker:just by existing. You know, maybe you're not in Minnesota and you didn't know somebody
Speaker:that's been harmed, but the idea of it happening is enough to hurt you.
Speaker:That's how these things work. That's realistic, that happens.
Speaker:So you have to give yourself time to process and grieve and figure
Speaker:out what the next step is. And the next step might not be for a
Speaker:little while because you need time that's realistic.
Speaker:You can figure out your plan of attack, whatever that is, without jumping on a
Speaker:pick a line today, without jumping on a protest line today. Now, if you want
Speaker:to do that, if that feels productive to you, if you want to be very
Speaker:active about it, I support you in that too. There's local protests almost
Speaker:everywhere. There's organizations that are putting together response
Speaker:campaigns. You know, I've said this over and over. If we really
Speaker:want to find out what these people are up to, we just need to organize
Speaker:a group of like Gen X moms with a Google account
Speaker:and they will find every skeleton in the closet of every one
Speaker:of these politicians who has facilitated this. And we will get them out of office
Speaker:post haste. Because clearly there's something about every one of them
Speaker:that they don't want somebody else to find out because they have
Speaker:compromised all of their supposed ethics for
Speaker:this. But if anybody wants to put together that army, I
Speaker:will very happily facilitate because I am certain that a couple
Speaker:of pissed off besties in a room with some margaritas will identify every
Speaker:single thing that we need to get these human piles of
Speaker:excrement out of office. But the reason you feel
Speaker:terrorized is because this is terrorism.
Speaker:That's why you feel terrorized. And so there is nothing
Speaker:wrong with you. If this is hard for me, you, there's
Speaker:nothing wrong with you. There's lots wrong with what's happening in our federal
Speaker:government. There's lots wrong with what's happening in
Speaker:Minnesota, literally outside, in my neighborhood, lots wrong.
Speaker:But your processing of it is not the problem. And you have to do
Speaker:that however your brain and your body need to so that you
Speaker:can. I don't even want to say get back to normal, because what the fuck
Speaker:is normal? Like, how do you get back to normal
Speaker:when we have a modern Gestapo invading our cities, but
Speaker:so that you can get through it? And if you can find community and a
Speaker:group who can support you when you need to be supported, that's going to be
Speaker:the key to whatever the next step is. Maybe it's
Speaker:being vocally outspoken, maybe it's going to
Speaker:protests, maybe it's running for office. Fucking run for office. We need more
Speaker:people like you. Please run for office. But whatever it is,
Speaker:if getting there seems insurmountable, it's because
Speaker:you feel terrorized, because you're being terrorized. That's the point.
Speaker:That's their goal. That's what they want. And I'm sorry for that. And I'm sorry
Speaker:you feel that way.
Speaker:Hello, everyone. Thanks for hanging out with us today.
Speaker:I have a very special guest with us. This is somebody who I
Speaker:am very lucky that I get to work with almost every day, who I have
Speaker:worked with for about the last year, is an incredible therapist who
Speaker:brings the most lovely
Speaker:depth of experience, both lived and
Speaker:employment based, I guess is the best way to put it. Fantastic
Speaker:intersection of all the things it makes her. Aside from the fact that she is
Speaker:just like inherently an interesting person, it makes her just fantastically interesting.
Speaker:So, so glad to have my lovely
Speaker:friend Maya here. Maya, do you wanna say hi?
Speaker:Hi. Hello, world. Tell us a little bit
Speaker:about your background and what you do every day and
Speaker:maybe some of the things that, you know, I find fascinating.
Speaker:Originally from Oklahoma City, born and raised.
Speaker:I used the word raised loosely. And then I
Speaker:moved to Chicago when I was 26 by
Speaker:myself via Craigslist. Yes, I would not suggest that today,
Speaker:kiddos, but it was very rewarding. And I feel like
Speaker:that's where I grew up and that's where I got to really figure out a
Speaker:sense of myself without the background noise of politics
Speaker:and family. I've always had an interest in psychology,
Speaker:and I'll admit it was piqued by the movie Silence of the
Speaker:Lambs. I watched it in high school. I was like, that's
Speaker:fascinating. So I got my BA at DePaul
Speaker:University in Chicago and I also got my Master in Education
Speaker:there as well. It was in clinical mental health
Speaker:counseling. And I've done that for about six
Speaker:years. And I've learned so much from my
Speaker:clients just as they've learned from me, which I think that needs to be
Speaker:shared more often. My main focus has been
Speaker:LGBTQ with the intersection of
Speaker:BIPOC people. 1. That's my
Speaker:intersectional identity. And I remember how
Speaker:hard it was for me growing up with all of
Speaker:that shame and fear of just being myself. And then
Speaker:growing up in the Baptist church made it a lot harder.
Speaker:I get a little tearful, but I have healed from it.
Speaker:So it's just based on my experience of being told that
Speaker:being homosexual back then is worse than
Speaker:a child molester, a pedophile, a murderer.
Speaker:I'm glad I took the time to really get to know myself. When I was
Speaker:in Chicago, I never felt more seen and more uplifted and
Speaker:loved. And that's also where I met my wife. And that's what
Speaker:has motivated me to switch for religious trauma.
Speaker:I had no idea how much of that is still going on in our world,
Speaker:and now I bet it's even more heightened with. With the political
Speaker:climate. I will try to keep the shade to a minimum,
Speaker:but you don't have to. Okay, so Cheeto requirement,
Speaker:basically, COVID variant
Speaker:number 2 47, is a part of
Speaker:that big religious conflict. Right. He's
Speaker:had so many changes in identity, and unfortunately,
Speaker:conservative, rigid, oppressive system
Speaker:of religion is now having a louder voice than it was
Speaker:before. What does your wife do for a living? And ironically,
Speaker:she's a pastor,
Speaker:so that's how we met. So
Speaker:I was on the board of trustees at a church that she came
Speaker:to after I joined it a year later. And the reason why, I'll
Speaker:say I joined that church. And it's Holy Covenant in Chicago.
Speaker:It's one of the most affirming churches I've ever been to. Before
Speaker:that my relationship with God was just me and my own. And then
Speaker:I went to a place where I could actually feel the love and
Speaker:acceptance. So stayed. A year later, we had a
Speaker:new pastor come in. I'll admit I Googled her
Speaker:to see if I
Speaker:can get to know a little bit about her before she started. And I was
Speaker:impressed. And it's funny, she'll probably
Speaker:kill me for sharing this, but when we first met, it was at
Speaker:a trustees meeting. And I called, introduced
Speaker:myself, try to be friendly. Her first words. Aren't you a
Speaker:little young to be on the trustees committee? And I was like,
Speaker:I'm gonna let that slide. But then.
Speaker:We got to know each other, we built a friendship, and then
Speaker:we fell in love. And I never thought
Speaker:someone of her stature, especially in the church,
Speaker:could love someone like me. It's not because I don't think I'm lovable. It's because
Speaker:I'm a heathen. And I didn't know if that would go over well, but
Speaker:it did and it still does. I'm honored to
Speaker:be the type of pastor's wife. My own identity,
Speaker:which we've had to deal with that in her new church here, they
Speaker:expect me to bake cookies and be nice and take up all
Speaker:their crap and internalize their
Speaker:work and local work. They need to be done.
Speaker:And I love that. I'm like, I have no other career.
Speaker:I'll attend some services, I'll support my wife.
Speaker:I'll say, I think my identity as a pastor's wife
Speaker:is based on Medea and
Speaker:Maya Angelou. So it's not typical. I say this as a. As a
Speaker:relatively agnostic Jewish person. Right? Like, like
Speaker:definitely Jewish. Believe in something, don't
Speaker:spend a whole lot of time figuring out what it is. But
Speaker:I also did not have a particularly
Speaker:traumatic faith based upbringing. There was a period of my
Speaker:life spent in an evangelical Christian cult, which is another story for another
Speaker:day. I can't wait to talk about that. And did very much happen, right? Exactly.
Speaker:But it is fascinating to me that despite all
Speaker:of this kind of negativity toward who you are
Speaker:that came out of your faith based upbringing,
Speaker:that you found your way, you were open to
Speaker:faith as an adult. Once you got out of that, was that a process
Speaker:or did you have to, you know, was there healing
Speaker:that had to be done or was it just finding the right place that made
Speaker:you feel seen? And then the rest just kind of fell into place. I think
Speaker:the healing was done in the process
Speaker:of accepting that I can have a different
Speaker:relationship with God versus what people kept telling me.
Speaker:And I had to find that relationship outside of organized
Speaker:religion for a while. And that's
Speaker:one of the reasons why I started that group, is to help
Speaker:people recognize faith. And religion can look any way
Speaker:you need it to. I even tell my clients,
Speaker:you know, you can believe in anything, but it's helpful to believe in
Speaker:something as you navigate a very hard process of
Speaker:healing through therapy. Kind of like myself. So I tell people, you can believe in
Speaker:a rock, tree, leaf, dog, cat, whatever
Speaker:you need, but we do need something outside
Speaker:of ourselves to take on all of the stress and
Speaker:shame and worry that we tend to keep
Speaker:in. So even if it's believing in community, it's just
Speaker:making that connection because there's a lot of
Speaker:divisiveness, unfortunately. So when I
Speaker:piloted my group, what Would queer Jesus do number
Speaker:one? I knew I was pushing buttons. I've gotten to the age of life, I
Speaker:don't give a shit, just going to call it out.
Speaker:And I also did that too. So queer people knew
Speaker:that there are options. And if you decide
Speaker:to have faith, it can look any way, but you can
Speaker:still build community. And I guess looking back is
Speaker:based on the ideal of we are the world, we are children.
Speaker:Knowing that this day and time, it's important to
Speaker:be able to connect with people even if they seem different
Speaker:from you. Because at the end of the day, as humans, we all
Speaker:have something in common. It just takes time to
Speaker:see it. And a lot of that is acceptance. One of the things
Speaker:that I find people kind of verbalize to me as they
Speaker:leave a very faith based upbringing. I'm not
Speaker:advocating for anybody to go find faith. And I think if you
Speaker:listen to what we just recently did, an episode with Libby Alders,
Speaker:who is a. She's a chaplain. First off, I need to have you two on
Speaker:an episode together and just let you do like BattleBots. Cause it's gonna be great
Speaker:anyway. But she has a very similar
Speaker:vibe to yours. And we talked a lot about what
Speaker:it's like to find a faith tradition. And I'm not necessarily an advocate for
Speaker:it, but I do think the thing that we don't verbalize enough when people are
Speaker:processing through faith based trauma or religious
Speaker:trauma is that there are a lot of bad things that can come out of
Speaker:organized religion. And I am like the first to talk about those things.
Speaker:But people don't realize that separating from that
Speaker:often represents a lack of community. And if you don't find a way
Speaker:to replace that community, that's often what you're grieving.
Speaker:Exactly. And that's one of the really most important,
Speaker:important goals of the group. So when I got to pilot,
Speaker:I had, or we had five
Speaker:people from different backgrounds, including
Speaker:Catholicism, Methodists. And so
Speaker:one thing I like to lift up to, I guess we want to get technical,
Speaker:is social discernment theory. So that's a way to look
Speaker:at scripture or those oppressive messages
Speaker:to reclaim them and reframe them into something that's
Speaker:meaningful and that brings about love and connection. So we're
Speaker:back to the group. We brought up the topic of
Speaker:abortion, which we all know is very controversial
Speaker:regarding faith, political, whatever.
Speaker:And there was someone who identified as
Speaker:Catholic. And by the way, most of them were Catholic. Actually
Speaker:they were all queer and bipoc. And this person
Speaker:was very kind and said, you know, I accept that other People
Speaker:feel differently, but I still connect to my Catholic faith
Speaker:and believe in pro life. And I was
Speaker:surprised that the other people in the cult actually
Speaker:took the time to embrace that versus critique it.
Speaker:And it ended up being a really good, deep
Speaker:conversation. So that's kind of something I've always wanted to
Speaker:do, again, is just bring some of those people that are different together.
Speaker:And I mean, there's incredibly powerful messages there on
Speaker:how, like, queer people are not a monolith. There is all kinds
Speaker:of variation in their belief structures. And it's one of the reasons
Speaker:why I love that we have so much focus on.
Speaker:I think inclusion means a lot of things, and
Speaker:a lot of people think finding inclusive spaces means you're going
Speaker:to find a space that is completely outside of
Speaker:the faith world, because faith worlds are not inclusive.
Speaker:Right. And that's the reality for a lot of people, and I get
Speaker:that. But it also represents this nucleus
Speaker:of community for so many people that they lose.
Speaker:And by finding a way back to it or finding something similar that does
Speaker:something, you know, similar for them. I know we've seen
Speaker:a huge amount of impact that that can have on people. And as you said,
Speaker:it could be 75 different faith traditions in the same place, but
Speaker:reinforcing that. Like, there's nothing in this book that says, you're
Speaker:not welcome here. There are people who say you're not welcome here, but there is
Speaker:nothing in the thing that actually drives our decision making that says you're not
Speaker:welcome here. And that's really big focus
Speaker:for Kelly because she probably did a queer Bible
Speaker:study, which that was the first time I ever wanted to go to Bible study.
Speaker:No shade. Because before it seemed like very fucking boring and
Speaker:people just throwing scripture back and forth. And I was like, why?
Speaker:But she did that and she let me help
Speaker:her, like guided. And it was just
Speaker:astonishing how a lot of
Speaker:people in our society who are not part of
Speaker:the. The privileged and the predominant
Speaker:don't know if they have the power of choice or even to
Speaker:challenge things. And so we brought up the
Speaker:story of Sodom and Gomorrah and people were shocked
Speaker:to hear that it's actually not about sin against
Speaker:homosexuality. It's actually about something very, very
Speaker:different. I mean, it was a messed up situation, but it's.
Speaker:People use it as a weapon and it's really not true. So
Speaker:we did a few more things like that and people were just like shocked,
Speaker:Number one, that they could just take the space to reflect and
Speaker:make it their own. Number two, there was still some fear of
Speaker:like, Am I going to hell if I challenge this? And we had to help
Speaker:them sit in the space of like. No. The thing that gets lost in
Speaker:religion for me is the power of choice. Because
Speaker:a lot of times people are told that if you lean
Speaker:into choice, then you're going against God and you'll probably end
Speaker:up doing Satan's work. Right? So not to trust
Speaker:yourself. And so I like to uplift that, not only
Speaker:in this group, but in therapy, too. I mean, I deal. I work with a
Speaker:lot of people who are like, I thought I had to do this. I thought
Speaker:I had to shrink myself. And it's not true. So,
Speaker:quick story. Before. Before we're done. One of my favorite, favorite television
Speaker:shows of all time is the West Wing. And there is an
Speaker:episode in the second season of the West Wing called Two
Speaker:Cathedrals. Yes, I
Speaker:lied. It was a sin. I've committed many sins. Have I
Speaker:displeased you, you feckless thug? 3.8 million
Speaker:new jobs. That wasn't good. Bailed
Speaker:out Mexico. Increased foreign trade. 30 million new
Speaker:acres of land for conservation. Put Mendoza on the bench.
Speaker:We're not fighting a war. I've raised three children.
Speaker:That's not enough to buy me out of the doghouse. Hey, credo.
Speaker:My deo pio. If you haven't seen the episode, go watch
Speaker:it. It's in the second season. It's incredible. It's one of the best hours of
Speaker:television that has ever happened. And I can quote the
Speaker:speech almost verbatim, which is probably a mental illness
Speaker:all on its own. But the thing that I love most about
Speaker:that, because the. The president in this storyline is a very
Speaker:devout Catholic who wanted to be priest when he
Speaker:grew up and then just happened to meet his wife in college and decided not
Speaker:to. And, like, this is a big deal for this character. But
Speaker:the thing that I love the most about it is before they filmed the
Speaker:scene, which they actually filmed in the National Cathedral. Oh, wow. They
Speaker:pulled aside the priest who runs
Speaker:all of it for. I don't know how that works. But the priest who runs
Speaker:all of it and says, just so you know, he's gonna say
Speaker:some really awful stuff about God and he's gonna do it in your
Speaker:space. And we wanna make sure that you know that and you're okay with
Speaker:it. And the priest was like, I know. And I'm so excited
Speaker:because. Because he was like.
Speaker:Because his take on it was like. You're supposed to argue. You're supposed
Speaker:to have questions. You're. You're gonna
Speaker:be angry. Your Things are gonna happen and you're not gonna understand it.
Speaker:And so he. I guess the, like, the story, the lore, obviously I
Speaker:wasn't there, is that this priest was like, standing in the
Speaker:wings the whole time, just transfixed by this very real, very
Speaker:human motion, watching the supposedly very powerful man take all
Speaker:of his anger out on God. Because he was like, that's real. That's
Speaker:realistic. You're not supposed to. So anyway, watch the episode. It's
Speaker:amazing. But it's also very much the same idea that, you know
Speaker:sometimes you're going to be mad because you don't have all the answers, and that
Speaker:doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong. What you've mentioned is
Speaker:something I also bring up in therapy with clients. Ask questions
Speaker:and ask me questions during the consultation. I don't care.
Speaker:That's your right. And if you don't want to work with me, you move on.
Speaker:Just be free to ask your therapist any
Speaker:questions. You need to make sure you feel safe and
Speaker:aligned. And yes, when people get mad in session, I love it.
Speaker:It's an emotion, and it's emotion that people are told that
Speaker:they're not supposed to have. And I remind people, anger is
Speaker:justified. It's like dbt. All emotions are valid. They just get
Speaker:dysregulated from time to time. We don't need to go on that ramp. But anger,
Speaker:for me, indicates the need that something needs to change.
Speaker:There is righteous anger. It does come up for a reason.
Speaker:That's such a good place to stop off at. Thank you so much
Speaker:for spending time with us. It has been a delight to have you here. Shout
Speaker:out to my neurodivergent peeps, I love you and hope
Speaker:to work with more of you moving forward.
Speaker:And now we'll go to Allison, who has this week's
Speaker:small talk. All right, so we have a question. From Hannah
Speaker:in Burlington, Vermont. I feel like I live in
Speaker:my head more than my body. I forget to eat,
Speaker:forget to drink water, forget that I'm tired until I'm
Speaker:wrecked. Is that dissociation, burnout?
Speaker:Just being bad at being human? Where do you even
Speaker:start? With reconnecting? So, as a non clinician, I
Speaker:cannot tell you if that's disassociation or not. You should definitely talk to
Speaker:a mental health professional about that. But what I can say is
Speaker:the world is a toxic hellscape, and it is very, very hard to
Speaker:exist right now. And so if this is
Speaker:something that is relatively new, if it is something that
Speaker:just feels like exhaustion, there's a
Speaker:lot to be exhausted by, and no one can fault you for that.
Speaker:So you are probably doing the
Speaker:most human thing, which is feeling your feelings,
Speaker:even if you're not entirely sure what they are.
Speaker:That said, one of the first signs of depression is
Speaker:lack of interest in doing things and kind of lack of participation
Speaker:in life. One of the earlier signs of depression, I should say so, like, maybe
Speaker:there is somebody you should talk to just to make sure that.
Speaker:Actually, like, I'm not even sure what to make sure of. Make sure that you
Speaker:are just having a reasonable response to the toxic hellscape that is happening outside.
Speaker:That doesn't seem better. But, like, maybe there is something that a mental health professional
Speaker:can help with. Maybe you need some time with friends.
Speaker:Maybe you need to develop some community around
Speaker:you who can kind of give you some motivation to do those things. I'll be
Speaker:honest. I'm the type. I have done this my whole life. I forget to eat
Speaker:all the time. I forget to go pee all the time. I will be like,
Speaker:oh, I have to go to the bathroom, and then find myself sitting at my
Speaker:computer two hours later going, did I ever pee? Which, by the way, like, not
Speaker:great for your kidneys. Don't do that. It's probably not great for your brain either
Speaker:if your brain is just, like, has a hole in it that your
Speaker:bodily functions just fall through. But I've done that my whole life, and
Speaker:I still participate in life fairly consistently.
Speaker:Not in any way that requires, like, socialization or shoes, but, you know,
Speaker:still doing most of the things I need to do. But if it's, you know,
Speaker:if it's bothering you, if it feels incorrect, if it feels.
Speaker:If it feels like you're missing out on something that you need
Speaker:access to, maybe it is time to talk to somebody. Or if
Speaker:this is relatively new and sudden onset
Speaker:and it is entirely reasonable to have that
Speaker:reaction to the things that are happening around you in the world. Like, this shit's
Speaker:heavy. And it's not the kind of heavy that you could just put down.
Speaker:It's just heavy. Thanks for being here, guys. Have a good day. Love you,
Speaker:Mina.
Speaker:Because my husband walked into my office and took his
Speaker:phone while I was sitting in front of my computer and just put it in
Speaker:front of my face and was like, can we go get that? And I was
Speaker:like, yeah. And that's how we ended up with a puppy.
