Episode 26
Autism hacks, sensory stories and The Autistic Adult's Toolbox
Ever find yourself carrying earplugs in every bag and pocket, just in case the world gets a little too… loud? Or maybe you’ve written letters to your doctor, explaining that “no, you don’t look autistic” is not the hot take they think it is? This is the episode for you.
I had the absolute privilege of sitting down with Natalie Diggins, technologist, deep tech investor, and—most importantly—the author of The Autistic Adults Toolbox. I’m not even exaggerating when I say her book lives permanently on my desk, just waiting to solve another of life’s neurospicy puzzles.
I didn’t tell her that before we interviewed, but, okay, surprise Natalie: you’re basically my lifeline on days when the world feels like a construction site inside my brain. I know some of you feel that too.
Here’s what you’re going to get from this episode:
Natalie doesn’t spend her time pontificating about “overcoming adversity” or “finding your purpose.”
No, she gets down to the real stuff: reverse engineering a life that works for your brain, documenting every semi-absurd hack, and making sure sensory survival is always step one.
You’ll hear how she wrote a pre-op letter for her surgeon (“Strangers touching me = nope”), only to find the medical world has a lot of catching up to do.
A little bit of hope: not all doctors are stuck in the 1990s, but spoiler… plenty of them are.
You’ll get the inside scoop on the magic tool-making mindset that yields everything from bespoke sensory plans to New York City restaurant negotiation tactics (earplug, anyone?), and what happens when you decide you can mask or unmask, by choice, not requirement.
Natalie even breaks down her “hot meter” for dealing with the “you don’t look autistic” crowd.
Why should you listen?
Maybe you’re late-diagnosed, or you’re still in the “is it sensory? Is it burnout? Am I just quirky?” phase.
Natalie’s journey is a cheat code for ditching shame, building support systems, and treating diagnosis as just another plot point—not the whole story. I
f you want to hear how anyone can build actual, actionable strategies for living well, even when your brain is extra spicy (and sometimes extra tired, extra loud, or extra meltdown-y), hit play.
My helpful offers for other people with neurospicy brains - https://stan.store/elletwo
Transcript
You know, it was sort of the. Well, you don't look autistic. And I'm like,
Speaker:well, what does autistic look like to you? That woman is
Speaker:no longer my doctor, and she's not a bad person. Similar to you, I
Speaker:travel with my AirPods not because I typically use them for
Speaker:noise when I'm out, but because I've had a couple of
Speaker:experiences lately. We went to the movies, and it was
Speaker:so loud that I couldn't settle down.
Speaker:The three ways to approach it. Kind of a hot meter. Cool,
Speaker:warm, and thermonuclear. All right, here we go. I'm gonna
Speaker:pretend I'm pushing record, because that feels right. Okay, I'm pressing record.
Speaker:Boop. Hi, everybody. I'm Lauren Howard. I
Speaker:go by L2. Yes, you can call me L2. Everybody does.
Speaker:It's a long story. It's actually not that long a story, but we'll save it
Speaker:for another time. Welcome to Different Not Broken, which
Speaker:is our podcast on exactly that. That there are a lot of people in
Speaker:this world walking around feeling broken, and the reality is you're just different. And
Speaker:that's.
Speaker:Hello, friends, and welcome back. We have a really special
Speaker:guest this week, which I'm very, very excited about. The
Speaker:author of an incredible book that literally sits on my desk. And
Speaker:she did not know that before we met, but the Autistic
Speaker:Adults toolbox. Natalie Diggins. I. First off,
Speaker:I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm so glad you're here. So thank you
Speaker:so much for joining us. Thank you for having me, and thank you for
Speaker:all that you're doing to support the community. I really appreciate that.
Speaker:Well, thank you for that. We do our best. Second off, thank you so much
Speaker:for doing us all a solid and putting this together on our behalf, because
Speaker:holy stuff. It's wonderful. Well, thank you for that. As
Speaker:L2 said, I'm Natalie Diggins. I am a technologist. I
Speaker:focus on emerging technologies. I work in engineering and
Speaker:operations. And basically, if you think about somebody comes up with
Speaker:some technology, make it up X. And somebody has to
Speaker:figure out how it works, how you operationalize
Speaker:it, and how you scale it. And so that throughout my career has
Speaker:been my job is to figure out. Is basically reverse engineer some technology
Speaker:to figure out how it ticks. So I do that. And because of that,
Speaker:I do a lot of angel investing in deep tech. So
Speaker:these are people, engineers that I've worked with side by side,
Speaker:some of whom went on to found multiple companies, and they've asked me to come
Speaker:back in as either an advisor and. Or an investor. So I do
Speaker:that. And then I wrote the Autistic Adults toolbox.
Speaker:And you can kind of see a pattern. My entire life has been about creating
Speaker:tools and figuring out how to engineer and re engineer things. And
Speaker:so I was talking one day with my autism doctor
Speaker:and I was having minor surgery, very minor surgery. But my first,
Speaker:I had no idea. I was terrified beyond what I think many people
Speaker:would regularly be terrified about surgery, but I had some
Speaker:very specific concerns around sensory issues. Strangers
Speaker:touching me, movement in my peripheral vision. I really struggle with
Speaker:that. And so I asked her, I said, I don't know how I'm going to
Speaker:get through this. I don't know how I can go to a hospital. I just
Speaker:don't. I can't. What do I do? And she said, well, I think you
Speaker:should write your surgeon a letter and tell your surgeon exactly kind
Speaker:of your issues and how the surgeon can accommodate
Speaker:those and basically give your doctor a blueprint on how to
Speaker:make this a success for you. And I said, that is brilliant.
Speaker:I love this. The great. Could you just point me to an example, a
Speaker:template or something, and I'll just take whatever somebody else has figured out
Speaker:and I'll just customize it for myself. And she said, I
Speaker:don't know any I like. You're kidding. No, no, really,
Speaker:there. I mean, there's got to be so many people who are just like
Speaker:me going through this, and we don't want a horrific experience,
Speaker:particularly when we can see what's going to happen ahead of time. So I went
Speaker:online and I researched and I. I'm sure there's forms out there somewhere. I
Speaker:couldn't find them. And so I went back to my autism doctor and we talked
Speaker:about it. And she helped me craft my letter, which you'll see in the very
Speaker:back of the book. And it's actually been incredibly helpful. But throughout
Speaker:all of my therapy with her, she kept being surprised
Speaker:at the tools that I was. I call them tools. They're
Speaker:helps, their little hacks, their whatever you want to call them. She kept
Speaker:being surprised by them and saying, wow, that's really terrific. I've not
Speaker:seen that before. And so I then came back to her and I said,
Speaker:well, disappoint me. Where are these tools in general? Forget about the surgery. Just,
Speaker:I need tools. I'm not broken. I just think
Speaker:differently and I'm not going to be pathologized. It's just
Speaker:like I say in my book, would you expect, you know, a. A semi
Speaker:truck driver to be able to get in the cab of a truck without having
Speaker:training or the right tools. Would you expect a baker to be able
Speaker:to bake without having an oven or a cookbook or. So
Speaker:why am I any different? I'm not any different. I just need
Speaker:tools. And so with her encouragement, I started
Speaker:documenting all of these things that I had been using for
Speaker:decades. And in some cases, there were no tools, like the
Speaker:letter from my doctor. And in that case, I just pretended I was an
Speaker:engineering problem to solve, and I experimented on myself until
Speaker:I could figure out something that worked. And so then I
Speaker:compiled them all in this book. It's funny, I was
Speaker:having dinner with a girlfriend recently, and she said, how does it feel to have
Speaker:this out in the world? And I said, every morning I wake up and I
Speaker:want to vomit. And she said, why? And because
Speaker:I really. I don't care what people think of me for the most part. I
Speaker:truly don't. It's not my session. It's just. It's. It's not something that
Speaker:weighs on me. But this was the most vulnerable thing I could put
Speaker:out in the world. It was as if you take all of my
Speaker:emotions, my feelings, my insecurities, my everything, and just
Speaker:shot them out into the world. And so I'm incredibly glad I did
Speaker:this. I still wake up every morning on a vomit
Speaker:when I think of how I put myself so far out there.
Speaker:And I'm normally a very private person, so I've shocked my friends,
Speaker:absolutely shocked my friends that I've done this, but they've been
Speaker:incredibly supportive. I've never had anybody describe
Speaker:the experience of something fairly mundane as
Speaker:absolutely terrifying, or maybe not absolutely terrifying, but just like
Speaker:overwhelming from a sensory perspective. The surgeon or the individual who
Speaker:performed the procedure that you were having, how did they react to
Speaker:getting the list or the letter? Yeah,
Speaker:so I'll actually expand on that. Three different doctors have now gotten that list. And
Speaker:the surgeon was phenomenal. She was so good.
Speaker:She looked at me. I gave the. Gave the letter advance, and I brought it
Speaker:also into the room for the last consultation. And
Speaker:she said, well, you know, Natalie, we actually get
Speaker:trained in this now. And that made me so
Speaker:happy. She was fairly young, and she just said, this is routine.
Speaker:It was just part of my residency. It was part of my rotation. And
Speaker:so that just gave me so much hope. I have since given it to two
Speaker:other doctors who were further in their career, one of whom was very
Speaker:supportive. The other basically looked at me like I had
Speaker:three heads. And, you know, it was sort of the,
Speaker:well, you don't look autistic. And I'm like, well, what does, what does
Speaker:autistic look like to you? That woman is no longer my doctor. And she's
Speaker:not a bad person. She just doesn't have the training or the
Speaker:capacity. And she could be a good doctor to many others, just not me.
Speaker:So I found that it's, it's so far a wide range.
Speaker:I only have experience with three people. Two very good, one
Speaker:just not so great. But then that was wonderful. Litmus test. That doctor's
Speaker:not meant for me. You just said the thing that I was gonna get to
Speaker:because I think obviously there is no
Speaker:autistic look. That is not a thing. But how often do
Speaker:you get that from individuals who you disclose to that you don't
Speaker:look autistic? Yeah. So. And again, back in my book,
Speaker:I talk about the three ways to approach it. Kind of a
Speaker:hot meter, cool, warm and thermonuclear.
Speaker:So cool is somebody just, it really wants to learn and
Speaker:they're curious. I'll spend the time and I'll, I'll explain it. And then
Speaker:on the other end, basically that's the only thing. Well, you, you, you
Speaker:don't, you can't, you have to be one of those TikTok girls. You can't possibly
Speaker:have autism. Well, I have zero respect. I will not waste my
Speaker:calories on these people and I just go nuclear. But I think that
Speaker:one of the mid range things that I often say is, well, it, I don't
Speaker:look autistic because I'm not a tween boy, you know,
Speaker:what does autism look like to you? And I try not to be a pugilist
Speaker:and really weaponize it in that midterm, but sometimes
Speaker:you gotta take a stand. These folks aren't trying to be rude, they
Speaker:just, they genuinely don't know. So I think that because of
Speaker:my work, many people aren't surprised. I work
Speaker:with a lot of people like me. I don't unfortunately work with a lot of
Speaker:women. And so anything that I did that was
Speaker:perceived as other, I think got slotted in a. Oh, well, she's a
Speaker:woman. I was almost always the woman on a team, the one woman.
Speaker:So professionally it wasn't much of an issue. I think in
Speaker:my personal life it can surprise people because I can hit
Speaker:my marks and present when I need to. I can mask. I've learned how to
Speaker:turn masking on and off, which is a survival skill.
Speaker:And sometimes I just want to fit in and I'll mask.
Speaker:But it's my choice. I will not be bullied or shamed into masking.
Speaker:That part of my life is over. But sometimes I do want a
Speaker:mask. It's either easy for me or I don't want to cause
Speaker:sort of distress for somebody particularly maybe like a grandparent or,
Speaker:you know, somebody of that generation. I don't want to cause them any, any pain
Speaker:or hurt or have to explain. So I would say professionally,
Speaker:it doesn't, it's not really an issue. I would say personally,
Speaker:often people aren't surprised, but I do think that
Speaker:it is being normalized throughout the world. Some
Speaker:countries I think are more ahead of us than here in the US
Speaker:and we'll say there's obviously a lot of talk with RFK and
Speaker:Tylenol. I think that more people are having those conversations. Our
Speaker:episode last week was literally started with me saying like, do you think
Speaker:my kids are neurodivergent because I took Tylenol or because I can't wear socks that
Speaker:feel too Towel? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or your mother withheld
Speaker:or. You know, I'm really happy whatever resources
Speaker:for anyone on the spectrum are deployed. So I'm really happy if
Speaker:this is what it takes for people with profound autism to get the resources and
Speaker:the support they need. But when I heard that, the first thing I thought
Speaker:about was, oh, no moms are going to be blamed for
Speaker:this. And I just, my heart just, it just gave a big old
Speaker:squeeze. And then the second thing I thought about was,
Speaker:wow. Let's just say these people don't believe in science. I
Speaker:don't believe they believe in science, but let's just say it is accurate. Okay?
Speaker:Let's just say I don't want to change who I am.
Speaker:You know, at this age, I'm in my 50s and I cannot
Speaker:imagine one taking medication
Speaker:to go back to what society views as, quote, normal or
Speaker:I like who I am, I don't want to change that. So I had a
Speaker:lot of thoughts and a lot of friends reached out to me on that too,
Speaker:asking what I thought about it. Yeah, I, I
Speaker:mean we talk about this a lot but like you can't aspire to be something
Speaker:that doesn't exist. Like normal is an idea and it's never been a thing.
Speaker:It's been a way to kind of make people fit into boxes that make it
Speaker:to, to that make it easy for easier for other people to decide,
Speaker:you know, who they are and who they should be. But like aspiring to something
Speaker:that is non existent doesn't serve anybody. And in
Speaker:fact Just teaches young people that they are, you know, that there's something wrong with
Speaker:them. Broken. That they're broken. Exactly,
Speaker:exactly. You said something super interesting
Speaker:about the. So I, I fully agree with you that,
Speaker:that Tylenol is a scapegoat for, for blaming women
Speaker:so that we can further marginalize women. You know, we talk, I think we talked
Speaker:about this last week, but the parenting comes with
Speaker:so much guilt. Even if you're doing everything right and nobody's doing everything right, you
Speaker:can't, you physically can't. So, like, let's heap the blame
Speaker:onto women so that when the time comes for us to
Speaker:make decisions about who fits our eugenics picture
Speaker:more, we've already. Our bodies. Exactly. Also,
Speaker:you know, I, this is something I, I still say
Speaker:it all the time, but something I said a lot when RFK was
Speaker:very first getting into office and, and was spewing all of his
Speaker:vaccine nonsense. So, you know, we have good data that shows
Speaker:that vaccines do not cause autism. We know that vaccines do
Speaker:not cause autism. But what it, but when you say that, what
Speaker:it does is tell the autistic people in your life
Speaker:that you would rather have a communicable disease than be like them.
Speaker:Yeah, I completely disagree. Yeah. First I just.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah. So the,
Speaker:the, these subtle, not even subtle, they're
Speaker:overt. These overt attacks that we make on people by saying
Speaker:we're going to prove, you know, we're going to show you the cause of X,
Speaker:Y, Z, when in reality what we're saying is we are
Speaker:going to make sure the world knows that there's something about you that we
Speaker:don't like or that we think is bad when,
Speaker:you know, vaccines don't cause autism, but autism causes vaccines.
Speaker:Like, if you were to take people, you know, to take those brains out of
Speaker:our societies, we would be in a lot of trouble because we need
Speaker:the precision and the pattern recognition and the attention
Speaker:to. And the thinking different, just thinking differently. Like, I
Speaker:approach the world in such a dramatically different way than anybody I
Speaker:know. And I think that's what makes me, in large
Speaker:part good at what I do. And it makes me ha. I mean, it
Speaker:helps me create a life that. Where I'm happy, I'm
Speaker:satisfied. It's not perfect. Some days I suck on
Speaker:the, you know, on, on far. It's. It's a good
Speaker:life. And I think a lot of that has to do with figuring out how
Speaker:to make the autism work for me and not against me. And again, I
Speaker:recognize I'm incredibly lucky in that regard. You
Speaker:Said that, that there are days that you suck, which I don't believe at all.
Speaker:But in your perception, in your perception, what are those
Speaker:days like? Oh, yeah, full meltdown. Full
Speaker:meltdown. And I distinguish the episodes between
Speaker:meltdowns and shutdowns. You know, meltdown is an outward expression,
Speaker:be it verbal, physical, and then the shutdown is the
Speaker:internal, you know, involuntary reflexes, of course, still work, but
Speaker:oh, epic, epic shutdowns. Yeah.
Speaker:And I'll be, you know, I can't get out of bed in
Speaker:the fetal position on the floor. It's tough. But
Speaker:you know, my goal isn't to remove those
Speaker:entirely because I think that's just an impossible goal.
Speaker:My goal is to, to reduce the frequency,
Speaker:increase the time between them and when I do have them,
Speaker:to shorten the duration to make sure they're not as
Speaker:intense. But just as important is to have my exit strategy
Speaker:of okay, I'm down, I'm trying to come back.
Speaker:What are the things that I need to come back in a
Speaker:healthy way? And so those are some pretty epic
Speaker:days. I mean, they are days. They're, they're not usually just
Speaker:one sucky day. They are, they could be many days strung together.
Speaker:Now, are they usually precipitated by something like not enough
Speaker:rest or not enough restoration time or
Speaker:something unexpected that happens, that triggers you.
Speaker:Is there, is there something not. Can you predict it?
Speaker:But if you were to look back now, could you see usually like a triggering
Speaker:event or something that you didn't practice enough prior that,
Speaker:that maybe led to it? Absolutely.
Speaker:Nine out of ten times it. There's sensory issues. So
Speaker:I live in New York City. It's sirens wailing. I carry
Speaker:at least three pairs of earplugs on me at all time. It's kind of like,
Speaker:like, you know, your summer coat, your winter coat, you know, they just keep getting
Speaker:heavier and heavier to the full on construction, block out
Speaker:the sun. And so I wear earplugs or
Speaker:ipods or whatever the form factor is almost at all times.
Speaker:And I think that for me personally, that was the single biggest thing
Speaker:that has helped me with the shutdowns is just
Speaker:managing all those sensory issues. And also
Speaker:it's being really deliberate about the places I go. So for
Speaker:example, I don't, it's. If I go to a
Speaker:loud restaurant and I have no choice, I cut my
Speaker:duration. And if I, let's say it's somebody's birthday and they've invited me for
Speaker:a birthday dinner leading up to it, I'll cut my sensory
Speaker:intake just making sure Everything's quiet, the lights are dim. And
Speaker:then I'll go to the event, try to have a good time wearing
Speaker:earplugs. And then on the backside, I will make sure I
Speaker:don't have anything planned that I don't have to do, obviously work I have to
Speaker:do. And I prioritize that, but I make sure that I don't have anything elective
Speaker:to do right after that so I can recover. So it's figuring out what
Speaker:my triggers are, managing them as best as I can, but being really
Speaker:deliberate. I don't go to, say, a loud restaurant just because I want
Speaker:to eat the food. I will save myself. I'll save those
Speaker:calories, so to speak, those sound calories, those sensory
Speaker:calories. But the things are really important to me. And my
Speaker:husband and I, we have really figured out a lot of great ways to handle
Speaker:this, which is, let's say we're going out to dinner again because we're in New
Speaker:York City, we all have tiny apartments and even tinier kitchens.
Speaker:We're going out to dinner. And so that it's fair to him
Speaker:because I don't want him to always to feel like
Speaker:he has a burden. I'll say you pick the cuisine, I'll pick the
Speaker:restaurant. So he'll pick whatever cuisine he feels like, but then I'll pick
Speaker:a restaurant that's relatively quiet, and then we're both happy. So it's
Speaker:really managing the sensory issues and then being
Speaker:very, very clear on what the trade offs are. Just not
Speaker:going to a restaurant. Cause it's cool, you're having a reason to go there
Speaker:and then managing it. So. So a couple of things.
Speaker:First off, these are on my desk all the time. Yes,
Speaker:Yes. I have children who are baseline loud.
Speaker:They don't like loud noises, but they cannot help but be loud.
Speaker:And so they're with me pretty. They're at least on my desk all the time.
Speaker:I am averse to both pants and shoes, so I don't go out a lot,
Speaker:but so they, they stay on my desk. And they're usually okay
Speaker:there, but when I'm going somewhere that I know that it could get loud, they
Speaker:get popped in my, in my purse. The other thing is similar to you. I
Speaker:travel with my AirPods not because I typically use them for
Speaker:noise when I'm out, but because I've had a couple of
Speaker:experiences lately, and I don't remember this being too much of an issue before, but
Speaker:now it is. I've had a couple of experiences lately. Like we went to the
Speaker:movies and it was so loud that I
Speaker:couldn't settle down. It was like. It was like somebody
Speaker:was. Was pumping me with adrenaline just.
Speaker:Just through the speakers. And my husband kept looking at me, and our kids
Speaker:were between us, but he kept looking at me and going, like, sit back in
Speaker:your seat. You're, like, sitting straight. And I'm like, I. I physically can't. And
Speaker:so I just happened to touch my pocket and realized that I had taken my
Speaker:AirPods out after a call and put them in my pocket instead of in
Speaker:the case. And so I put them in my ears, and it just. It
Speaker:just. They weren't even. I don't even think they had power, but they just did
Speaker:the seal just enough that it brought the volume down enough
Speaker:that I was like, oh, okay. And then I sat back and watched the rest
Speaker:of the movie, and it was fine. First of all, I was like, who in
Speaker:the world thought that the movie needed to be that loud? Because that's not good
Speaker:for anybody's ears. And I'm, like, worrying about, like, my children's hearing at
Speaker:this point. But, like, there was no way I was getting through that whole movie
Speaker:with it that loud. There was no point where I was gonna. Where I was.
Speaker:Where that exposure was going to stop irritating
Speaker:me or making me feel activated. The other thing, and this
Speaker:is more of a question that I just don't understand that I'm sure you do
Speaker:not have the answer to. But did you know that there are
Speaker:people who go to restaurants with live music on purpose?
Speaker:Because I recently learned this,
Speaker:yes. I say to my husband all the time, loud music makes my food
Speaker:taste bad. I don't. I can't do it. I don't
Speaker:want to do it. But. Yeah, no. There's a restaurant we like
Speaker:fairly, you know, not that far down the street from us. And every Thursday and
Speaker:Friday night, they have loud. They have live music. And the guy is actually very
Speaker:good. He is. He. He sings all of the,
Speaker:like, late 80s and 90s hits that. That make me feel
Speaker:all grunge rocky. And. And he's. He's a very beautiful
Speaker:voice, and I want nothing to do with him. You know, it's funny,
Speaker:though. I love music, so I have a special set of
Speaker:earplugs that they're. They have high fidelity.
Speaker:Because I love music. I just can't handle the volume,
Speaker:and so I wear those. You know, One more thing I wanted to say on
Speaker:earplugs. I call them earplugs. Whatever. Whatever you're using
Speaker:is when I am out, say in a restaurant, and
Speaker:I'm wearing them. I'm very concerned that the server will think I'm
Speaker:being disrespectful, that I'm on a call or listening to music.
Speaker:So I always tell the server something like, oh, you know, it's just. I'll
Speaker:point, but it's a little too loud for me in here because I don't want
Speaker:to disrespect the server. And then I have a friend, and she
Speaker:teaches, like, exercise classes at a gym. And I was
Speaker:telling her, I always. If I'm taking a class at my gym, I always go
Speaker:and I tell the instructor, hey, look, I'm autistic. I'm wearing
Speaker:these earplugs because the sensor, it would be sensory overload for
Speaker:me, and I couldn't do it. I want you to know I'm doing this for
Speaker:safety reasons. I'm not doing it because I'm on a call or I'm
Speaker:listening to music. And I talked to a friend about this, and she said, so
Speaker:one of her pet peeves is that people take calls in the middle of gym
Speaker:classes. I don't know who these people are. And she said that it's a
Speaker:safety concern for her as well. So, again, while I wear
Speaker:plugs all the time, if I feel I'm going to be disrespectful to somebody,
Speaker:I just tell them I'm autistic, I can't handle the noise, or if I don't
Speaker:want that many words, I go, you know, point, and I go, it's just too
Speaker:loud for me. So I want it to work for me, but I
Speaker:also want to be respectful of other people. So I do call it out when
Speaker:I'm wearing them in public, which is all the time.
Speaker:It's funny, I. One of my daughters is really sensitive to sound, and we kind
Speaker:of thought she would grow out of it. Well, I think my husband thought she
Speaker:would grow out of it. I was pretty. I didn't think she would. But
Speaker:anytime it's even a little bit loud, she covers her ears. And,
Speaker:you know, she has some headphones and stuff now that she can wear the bit,
Speaker:like the big ones, if, you know, if we know we're going someplace loud,
Speaker:but sometimes we just don't know. And so it's an argument that I've
Speaker:gotten into with a couple of members of his family who. She'll
Speaker:cover her ears and they'll pull her hands down, and
Speaker:it's like instant mama bear. I'll be like, cover your
Speaker:ears if you need to. If it's too loud. If you want to go outside,
Speaker:we can. Don't touch my kids hands. They're there. She's not doing
Speaker:it because she's overly sensitive. We need to stop treating people
Speaker:as overly sensitive and acknowledge that, like, maybe there's something that she needs from
Speaker:this that she's not getting and she's providing it to
Speaker:herself. But it's something that I didn't even
Speaker:realize, I probably didn't realize how prevalent it was for me until I watched my
Speaker:kid do it all the time. But that's like,
Speaker:that's like an instant hot button for me. It's like, if my kid is
Speaker:adapting to a situation in whatever way they need to, that is in
Speaker:no way troublesome to you. And even if it is troublesome to you,
Speaker:you might need to get over it. But in no way troublesome to
Speaker:you. Do not. If you need to correct her, you come to me first, because
Speaker:I'm not gonna tell her to not cover her ears if she feels like something
Speaker:is overstimulating to her. And I, I don't know if it's just people.
Speaker:If I think about the people who do it, it's either people who have probably
Speaker:never been overstimulated in their lives or
Speaker:people who were forced into
Speaker:bad coping mechanisms for overstimulation and think, well, that
Speaker:worked for me, so you need to figure it out too. And that is not
Speaker:how I'm raising my kids. That is not the world that we're going to throw
Speaker:them into. And I wonder, though, it's for the people who do that,
Speaker:say, in this example to your kids. I would guess, I don't know, but I
Speaker:would guess that they don't limit it to just sensory issues. Right.
Speaker:It's that, do they also. Would they do this for some other things,
Speaker:Having something else, having nothing to do with sensory.
Speaker:Yeah, I think there is, there's definitely kind of a generational gap on how
Speaker:much I correct my children. And not to say that they're ever, they can't,
Speaker:you know, they're not allowed to be rude, they're not allowed to be disrespectful. They
Speaker:can't fight in public. If they want to fight in their bedrooms, that's fine.
Speaker:They, you know, they can't touch other people's stuff. We're very, we're very
Speaker:sensitive to that type of stuff. But I, I, I think there is,
Speaker:there is kind of a boomer centric inclination
Speaker:to correct. That
Speaker:is not how we're raising our children. Now, if they do
Speaker:something Wrong. If they do something that requires a consequence, obviously they get
Speaker:consequences. My, my seven year old is learning that the hard way now after
Speaker:she broke her video game system and did not get the,
Speaker:did not get the immediate repair that she thought her parents were going to
Speaker:facilitate. But that's a consequence. She broke it. There's a consequence. But I do
Speaker:remember there was, there was a situation
Speaker:earlier this year, I think, where, and this is a family
Speaker:member who I wouldn't even expect this from. So it was a little bizarre.
Speaker:But my, my kids are sassy and I taught them to be
Speaker:sassy and just, I think it's. Believe that. Right? Shocking.
Speaker:I love, I love that they're sarcastic and I love that they talk back to
Speaker:me. And they also know that there's a limit and they're pretty good at respecting
Speaker:that limit. But my oldest said something
Speaker:to me that was, that was very sassy
Speaker:and like very much a fireback. I don't even know that she
Speaker:thought much about it. It just came right out of her mouth. And we were
Speaker:sitting with a family member and the family member looks at her and says,
Speaker:you, you better watch how you talk to your mom or she's gonna give you
Speaker:a fat lip. And my kid looked at
Speaker:her and said, I don't know what that means. What's a fat lip? And she
Speaker:said, she's gonna hit you in the face
Speaker:and make your lips swell. And I think she, I think
Speaker:she realized and tried to backtrack, but
Speaker:swear to God, my kid looked her in the face and said, she's my mom,
Speaker:she would never hit me. And I went, oh,
Speaker:I've done one thing right. One, one. But
Speaker:it's very much that kind of,
Speaker:if you misbehave, we are going to control your body. And that
Speaker:doesn't happen in our house. And I think that's a theme. Yeah,
Speaker:it's a theme. Right as we started out this chat. It's a theme.
Speaker:Yeah. And so I think in our house it comes out a lot more
Speaker:as, you know, my kids, neurodivergent quirks that we are not going to,
Speaker:we're not gonna, you know, talk out of them just because
Speaker:it makes anybody else uncomfortable. Like they're, this is the way their
Speaker:body operates and they're allowed to regulate their body however they feel. But I think
Speaker:you're probably right. On a bigger scale, it's, you know,
Speaker:it's, I'm the adult and you're the child and I want you to do
Speaker:this with your body. And therefore I feel empowered to tell you to do
Speaker:that with your body. And like, that just doesn't fly in my house. Yes.
Speaker:So let's. Let's say that you're. There's somebody who is
Speaker:just coming to their diagnosis. You know, I think you said
Speaker:you were late diagnosed. Right. And so somebody who is in a
Speaker:similar situation, who is just coming to their diagnosis, who maybe has known
Speaker:there was something different about them, but never been able to put their
Speaker:finger on it. And let's say they're about to get their report, but they don't
Speaker:have the confirmation yet. Do you have anything that you would say to them about
Speaker:setting up what this next couple of years is gonna look like as they navigate
Speaker:through that? Yeah. So let's
Speaker:say that the report does come back as they're not neurodivergent.
Speaker:Let's just say that. But yet perhaps they still have sensory issues
Speaker:or, you know, name it.
Speaker:The way I talk to some of my neurotypical friends is like,
Speaker:they say, well, what's the difference between you and me? I
Speaker:have sensory issues too. And I say, well, with me, it's how my brain is
Speaker:wired, number one. And it's also the
Speaker:intensity of it. It's much. It's likely much more intense for me.
Speaker:But I'd say to people, but your issues are very real. So
Speaker:if you have sensory issues, regardless of whether or not you're neurotypical or
Speaker:neurodivergent, you need tools or you need support to handle that. So
Speaker:that's kind of the first thing, is that even if it comes back negative, and
Speaker:yet you have many of the same life experiences,
Speaker:it doesn't mean that you won't benefit from support. So that's the first
Speaker:thing. And the second thing is, for me personally, it was
Speaker:really. It was really terrifying because then I didn't know what
Speaker:to do. I had had several doc. I'd had two doctors already
Speaker:say, you're nd And I didn't believe it. ND didn't
Speaker:believe it. And finally I went for the belt and suspenders. I said, I want
Speaker:you to put me through the most grueling, rigorous test process you can.
Speaker:And it was. It really was. And then I get this
Speaker:diagnosis and it's like, you're not just a little on the spectrum, you're a
Speaker:lot. And I was scoring off the charts on so many of the
Speaker:different tests. And it's like, okay,
Speaker:what do I do with it? So what I would say is
Speaker:the diagnosis is not the end point. The diagnosis
Speaker:is just, you know, part of the journey is that figure out what
Speaker:you're going to need after the diagnosis, regardless of what that
Speaker:diagnosis is. If you've got sensory issues, you've got sensory issues,
Speaker:regardless of what's driving it. So I would say just reach out and
Speaker:get a network of support. I'm incredibly fortunate. I've got great doctors
Speaker:who have just been beside me and supporting me. And I think that's how
Speaker:I'm able now to just have a conversation and not, you know,
Speaker:really struggle with it like I used to. So diagnosis is just a
Speaker:point of the journey. Got a lot, a lot more coming.
Speaker:You said something earlier that I wanted to circle back to because I think we
Speaker:have so many conversations about this idea of masking and how
Speaker:most of the conversations around them really seem to highlight that it's,
Speaker:well, it's something you shouldn't do or it's unfair to you
Speaker:to have to do that. And it's not that I disagree
Speaker:with the intention behind that, but you said something really interesting that I would love
Speaker:to get more information on, which is you
Speaker:sometimes make the conscious choice to do it because that's what you want to do.
Speaker:Talk me through what that part of the journey has been
Speaker:like and figuring out when it's okay to, to turn it on
Speaker:and turn it off. And how is that a protective
Speaker:measure? Is that something that you're just more comfortable doing in certain
Speaker:situations, et cetera? Sure. So
Speaker:I, I'm going to give you experiences that are very New York centric
Speaker:because that's where I live, that's my life. But let's say I get
Speaker:in a cab, I'm always, I always say, hello, good afternoon, want to get in
Speaker:the cab. And I purposely sit myself behind the cab driver
Speaker:so that I'm not expected to make chit chat. Some people, you know,
Speaker:oh, fresh, fresh pair of ears. I can't wait to talk to her. I don't
Speaker:choose to mask in those environments because it
Speaker:takes too much out of me. So I try to remove myself from the
Speaker:situation by sitting behind the driver. Now,
Speaker:there may be some. But it's my choice. I have agency. And then
Speaker:I may be going to a social event and I may. It may just be
Speaker:easier for me to blend in. I choose to mask. Nobody
Speaker:makes me mask. And that's something that is,
Speaker:I think, very, very difficult to be able to do. So there's both technically how
Speaker:you do it, but then it's how do you make the decision? Right. And everybody's
Speaker:going to have a different framework for that. But I'm Very
Speaker:purposeful in when I will mask and when. When I won't.
Speaker:And I find that I spend much more time with people
Speaker:where I. With whom I don't have to mask. They just love me
Speaker:and accept me, you know, all of my
Speaker:warts and all. And so, yeah, it's just. I am not
Speaker:going to just play a part
Speaker:because somebody expects me to. And frankly, I have to be
Speaker:honest, when I was in my 20s, I didn't have that luxury. I just
Speaker:didn't. I had. I, I was scratching and climb. I was putting myself
Speaker:through school. I h. It was survival for me. But
Speaker:now I kind of. I've earned it. And so I guess what I would say
Speaker:is I, I talk to a lot of younger autistics and I'm like, oh,
Speaker:gosh, please don't worry. It's gonna get so much easier and
Speaker:it's going to get hard. It is. And I really respect what you're going to
Speaker:go through, but trust me, when you get older, you just don't
Speaker:care. You don't care. You've got your
Speaker:priorities, you know, it's important to you, and
Speaker:you're secure in who you are. And I think that, that, though, again, is
Speaker:neurotypical or neurodivergent. That perhaps is not so
Speaker:dissimilar. So what if someone says to you,
Speaker:I, I never. I mask anytime I go out
Speaker:in public because that's how I'm more comfortable. How
Speaker:does. I have no issue with that if that's, if that's the person
Speaker:making the decision and they're comfortable. Rock on. I
Speaker:have no issue with that whatsoever. That person has
Speaker:agency and control. I completely respect that.
Speaker:I don't want to feel like I, I'm on the flip side. If someone
Speaker:tells me you should never mask, that's bad. Well, that's not their
Speaker:decision. That's my decision. I have control. So I'm all for
Speaker:letting people make their own decisions based on what is right for them,
Speaker:not what society tells them is good or bad. What's
Speaker:right for you? Uh, yeah. I think there is
Speaker:this narrative out there that anytime someone has to mask, we're in some way
Speaker:harming them. And if you're in a situation where you. It's
Speaker:unsafe to be yourself, yeah, that's harm. That's. That's not okay
Speaker:completely. If you're in a situation where you just don't want to
Speaker:be. You don't want to be vulnerable, you don't want to be exposed, you want
Speaker:to put on the protective armor, which in this Case is your quote, unquote
Speaker:mask. Because unmasking is very vulnerable and
Speaker:you probably have received, you know, some kind of negative feedback
Speaker:for being yourself because you're not understood. Then
Speaker:protect yourself however you need to. That's not up to me or anybody
Speaker:else to tell you how to behave in those situations. So,
Speaker:yeah, I think we're, we're very much aligned on that. And I, you know, I
Speaker:love the narrative that you should always be your authentic self and that
Speaker:we love you for who your authentic self is. But also,
Speaker:however, you have to feel safe. There are people who are in
Speaker:environments where it is not safe to be their authentic selves. And I also think,
Speaker:you know, there is this idea that, that only
Speaker:neurodivergent people have to mask. And maybe it's not exactly masking, but
Speaker:like, there's always been a thing where people are someone
Speaker:different at work than they are at home, that they don't share their personal
Speaker:lives or their, or their quote, unquote, authentic self at work. Maybe
Speaker:not even because they're hiding anything, but because, like, that's personal. That's not for the
Speaker:people I work with. I don't want to share it with them, and that's okay.
Speaker:Like, you don't have to be the, you know, you don't have to be
Speaker:whatever version of you exists at home. You don't have to share that with people
Speaker:if you don't want to. That you get to pick your vulnerability and when you're
Speaker:going to be, when that vulnerability is going to be exposed. And that's not up
Speaker:to anybody else. I agree. And I think that during times
Speaker:when you feel like you have to mask and you maybe don't want to say
Speaker:a work function, I always have a plan. Go in, hit
Speaker:your marks, get out. You know, I, I go around, I say hi to
Speaker:everybody. I make this the French leak. I make sure I
Speaker:get in a few photographs. You know, I kind of have a plan. When I
Speaker:go in, I can be in and out in 10, 15 minutes. So yes, maybe
Speaker:I'm masking because I need to. Professionally, it's 10, 15 minutes and
Speaker:I bounce and gone. So I think that there's also a way when you feel
Speaker:like you need to do that, say for professional reasons. I think there's a
Speaker:way to do that that still protects your energy and your mental
Speaker:well being.
Speaker:It's, it's funny that you say that because there was a situation not that long
Speaker:ago where Allison and I did exactly that. We had to go to a function,
Speaker:we had to act like fancy adults. There
Speaker:was, like, the first thing that happened was they were like, go to the bar,
Speaker:grab a drink. And we were both like, what do we drink? We don't. We
Speaker:don't do this stuff. And so. But before we went in, we
Speaker:had a plan. We knew how long we were comfortable staying. We knew how we
Speaker:would deviate from it. And then I said to her, at some point, I'm probably
Speaker:going to be like, let's go find the bathroom. And that's code for let's go
Speaker:find the bathroom in our hotel room. And not come back on your
Speaker:pajamas. Yeah, exactly. But they. Everybody saw us. We
Speaker:shook hands. It was a lovely party. It was lovely people. And we had our
Speaker:film. We left. And so 100%, I think, you
Speaker:know, exit planning. And I. And I think there is
Speaker:a part of me that thinks, man, it is so exhausting to have to plan
Speaker:so much, to just do what other people do so freely. And then there's the
Speaker:other part of me that's like, yeah, but what else are you gonna do? You
Speaker:can't not. And then. And then be miserable.
Speaker:Like, that's not a solution. So this is how we kind of temper the world
Speaker:around us to fit us, rather than just being an
Speaker:exposed nerve all the time. Um, well, Natalie, your book is
Speaker:the Autistic Adults toolbox again. I devoured it the day I
Speaker:got it. It's fantastic. It really is super actionable, which I
Speaker:love. Where can people find it? Easiest way
Speaker:is Amazon.com or your local bookstore.
Speaker:Amazing. Thank you so much for spending this time. Thank you. I really
Speaker:appreciate it. This was lovely. I. It is so nice to talk to somebody who
Speaker:kind of gets my brain and gets it well enough to write, literally,
Speaker:a book that makes it work better. I so appreciate
Speaker:it. It was lovely to spend time with you. Thank you. Head to where your
Speaker:books are found so that you can get a copy of this, because
Speaker:it's excellent. All right, Have a great day, guys. Love you. Mean
Speaker:it.
